The Strong Mom Podcast

Just a Mom Chasing an Olympic Medal: Overcoming Your Mom Guilt to Create Harmony Throughout Your Life

• Lauren Regula | Strong Mom • Episode 5

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Struggling with mommy guilt is like wrestling a relentless shadow, it follows you everywhere. As I, Lauren, opened up about my quandary over training for a third Olympic team while being a mom, I couldn't help but wonder how many other mothers grapple with similar feelings. Together with my co-host Dave, we peel back the layers of guilt, fears, and societal pressures that so often cloud the joy of motherhood. This episode is a deep and raw conversation about finding that elusive balance between chasing your dreams and nurturing your family, where I share my intimate journey and the emotional rollercoaster that comes with trying to be both an Olympian and a dedicated parent.

Every mother's battle with guilt is unique, yet universally understood. We navigate the complexities of FOPO—the fear of other people's opinions—and the internal turmoil it stirs within us. It's time we redefine what it means to be a present parent and a professional. The discussion turns to strategies for achieving harmony over balance, with the realization that perfection is a myth, and being grounded in the moment is key. We also highlight the importance of shared responsibilities within families, emphasizing that self-care and delegating tasks are not just beneficial for moms, but essential for healthy family dynamics.

Wrapping up the episode, we underscore the transformative power of "brain dumps" and setting non-negotiables for personal well-being. We delve into the significance of constructing a supportive community for mothers—a sanctuary from the cultural pressures of parenting. Upcoming guests are set to enrich our dialogue with their insights, reinforcing our mission to help moms feel good, be present, and ultimately, create the harmony they deserve. Remember to engage with us—like, subscribe, and share—to be part of a movement that champions the strength and well-being of mothers everywhere.

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Dave:

Guilt, like any emotion, is a check engine. Every emotion is signaling, something is going on.

Lauren:

The issue that I struggle with is the guilt that's perpetual. That's really not changing any of our actions, but it's making us live in the past. Exercise is definitely the number one way that I get into a better mental state. I have opened my eyes to sharing responsibility in a way that is beneficial to all. Welcome to the Strong Mom podcast. I'm Lauren, three-time mom, three-time Olympian, two-time business owner and creator of Strong Mom All right, I'm Dave.

Dave:

I'm the co-host. Zero-time Olympian, supportive and wonderful husband.

Lauren:

Absolutely All right. So today we're going to talk about something that we hear all the time from talking to thousands of moms, and that is this idea of mommy guilt right, the very heavy feeling that we're constantly letting people down. And I'm going to share an example from my life in ways that I've been able to navigate it, not saying by any means it's completely eliminated, but the goal through this podcast is to help you move through that mommy guilt so you can be better for your family.

Dave:

All right, let's jump right in. So I want to and I know the answer, but I want to know in your life and this is, I think, what's going to be useful for other people to hear about talk about the biggest instance or heaviest mommy guilt situation that you've dealt with.

Lauren:

Yeah. So most recently in terms of mommy guilt, was the decision that we made together but me being the mom had when I decided to get back into the athlete pool to try out for my third Olympic roster. Right, I went to the first Olympics in 2004. No, kids wasn't married. I went to the second, my second Olympics in 2008. We had just got married in 07. So I understood the I don't love the word sacrifice, but I understood, you know, the heaviness that came with putting part of my life, you know, kind of to the side while I trained for something really, really important to me and pretty big. And so this idea and this opportunity came up to get back in the athlete pool and that just means that I was able to. I was able to go to try outs essentially what it is.

Dave:

Getting yeah, to be clear, getting back. You love to talk about getting back in the athlete pool. That means you went back to training for trying out for the Olympic team. That's all. That's all it means when we hear that going forward.

Lauren:

Yes, Sorry, it's just part of my part of my vocabulary.

Dave:

But we don't. We don't all speak like Olympians.

Lauren:

But a lot of people considered that a no brainer. Right, we were all older, we all love living in our glory days and I know what it's like to be. And if you played sports, if you're listening to this and you played sports, and you know how exciting that is, and thinking about having the opportunity to go back and train for the sport you love and be around people that you respect and want to be around, and in that team culture seems like a no brainer. And I definitely had a couple sides of the coin.

Lauren:

I had a couple people that, well, you know, one side of the coin was, oh my gosh, like, of course it's a no brainer, and then the other side is where mommy guilt came in. Was you know? Is that something you could do? Could you take that time away to train, cause it's going to be taking time away from your family? So I had both of those, those inputs, to navigate and I can tell you honestly, the guilt, mommy guilt and where mommy guilt comes from, which I'm going to dive into, almost stopped me from saying yes to that opportunity.

Dave:

So those are two external things right.

Lauren:

Yes, of what?

Dave:

people were saying what internally? What were you dealing with? Or what did you? What did you feel internally, separate from those voices?

Lauren:

As a mom, I was wrestling I'd say wrestling with this idea of well, what if I'm not there for the kids? I don't want to not be there for the kids. I remember sitting on my therapist's couch and I looked her dead in the eye and I was dead serious. I said, dr Moran, are my kids going to think that I abandoned them? That was a concern of mine. I was feeling super guilty thinking of. I pictured all of the, the negative things that were going to happen. I'm going to be gone, I'm going to be missing. You know laundry going to be done. No, just kidding. I know you can do all of that.

Dave:

For a frame. This is you're talking about being gone for six months in a row, right? This applies. We meet moms that feel this and I've seen you feel it. On a smaller scale, it could. It could mean, um, leaving on a daily basis to take care of yourself, to go to the gym. It could mean getting out of the house with your spouse or partner for a date night. It could mean taking a week vacation with your spouse away from your kids. There's so many things that I see, and from it's part of it's from talking um to you know a thousand plus moms going through different things, and the reality is for me. I'll ask you do you do you think there's a specific mom that it affects? Right, because there are people that are super high performing. You know we work with, uh, moms that's a CEO or somebody that's a young mom that's coming up and still finding their feet with their career. Do you think it it's across the board or do you think there's one specific type of mom that it affects?

Lauren:

No, I mean, it's just my opinion. My opinion is that mommy guilt is rampant. Every mom has it because we go from having our own identity, our own goals or our own. We're our own selves and now we're somebody else's entire world, and I think I'll speak for me personally it's blurry on on what we are supposed to be to our kids. So I mean, I think it's everywhere.

Lauren:

Um, I haven't met a mom yet that hasn't felt that guilt in some manner or capacity when it came, when it comes to them doing something for themselves, even if it's putting them in a better position to show up for the kids, and that's that's the one thing I really want to dive in into today is we have this negative and I know I did big time this negative cloud around anything that could potentially be beneficial. I would totally exclude all the benefits and only think of the negative things. If it was taking care of myself, if it was chasing my dreams like going into train for another Olympics, if it's going for our. We always go on week long, you know, vacations around our anniversary. That's something we've always done. I still wrestle with the oh you know, should I be putting this time here or there? And I tend to gravitate towards the negative, when in reality there's so many more benefits that just they're just not highlighted.

Dave:

All right, so let's get back to Olympics, right? So obviously you went right. The metals sitting behind you on the shelf, what? What do you think or what did you do to get through that specific spot, right, To fight through the mommy guilt?

Lauren:

Yeah, well, before I jump into what, what I did, I just want to share where I think it it came from and I think this is very. For me, it was enlightening in terms of knowing that there's a reason I like to know, to know what's going on.

Dave:

I think it makes it easier, right For everybody, if you realize that you're not this person, that the one you know, the one off that feels like this, like if this is a bigger thing, that other people like you are feeling it's like everything else. It just makes it a lot easier.

Lauren:

Yeah, I think, one societal pressure. Do I look like all the other moms in? You know, around me? Am I doing something very different? How is that going to be perceived amongst other people? That's something that Dr Michael Jervais calls FOPO, and that was a huge thing. I was worried about people. I I was worried about being a bad mom, and on top of it, that's where the guilt came in. On top of it, I was worried that people would think I was a bad mom.

Dave:

So those are like two separate things. It's interesting as like cause I'm the dad slash husband in the scenario, like watching this unfold. I think for guys and this is where I think husbands probably don't get it I don't necessarily think we're wired the same. Does that make sense?

Lauren:

So we're definitely not wired the same.

Dave:

You and I know, but I think a lot of husbands right, I think, like we look at these situations sometimes and we're like it's. I think it's much easier for us to take time and space for ourselves Most of the time. Again, it could be growing up, it could be society like mother is supposed to mother all the time, kind of thing. But it's interesting to see like there are times when you're feeling this pressure, this guilt, and I'm like really, like what are you doing? Like how can you not step away and do something for yourself, right? And so that's just kind of a. I don't know if it's a warning to all of the moms, but you're not always going to find a sympathetic voice with your spouse. If you do, congrats.

Lauren:

Yeah, I'll be the first to say we have differing views at times, 100%.

Dave:

Oh, yeah, yeah, and I think we're both trying to get to the same place at the end, right, like I just want you to be happy. I just have a little different route sometimes. It's not wrong, right, you feel you feel it. It just there is. It's watching this guilt sit on top of moms is.

Lauren:

Well, let me get through the couple of things that I want to share and then I'll talk about that. Because guilt, when we really boil it down, when I did a lot of work, internal work, when I was really trying to feel good, I, I it. I got hit over the head with a hammer of guilt. That doesn't help me prepare and progress towards the future that I want. It just keeps me in a perpetual bad state. So if it's not helping, we need to figure out how to address it and move on. But I do want to keep talking.

Dave:

Can you say that again? I don't think I've heard you say that out loud. That's my line normally. Say that again.

Lauren:

Why? So you can play it back to me?

Dave:

Yeah, I'm going to yeah, I might ask you again after this to say it one more time.

Lauren:

No, but it's true, I actually was. I was listening to a podcast. Anyone that is in our, our coaching program knows that we are huge on podcasts and learning, and there was one just about guilt. And it does not. If it's not serving a purpose to make us better then we need to be able to move through it. It doesn't mean it's never not going to come up, it just means we need to move through it. But I do. Can I go on and just share where else I think guilt comes from, or at least from my experience?

Dave:

I just want to make one point which I think is interesting, that you made me think of.

Lauren:

Thank you, welcome.

Dave:

Guilt, like any emotion, is a check engine light. Like you said it's. It's guilt isn't pointless, because I think a lot, of, a lot of guys I've in the past myself been like guilt's a meaningless, useless emotion. It's not every emotion, if you pay attention to it, is signaling something is going on. So you don't, you don't sit in the emotion. You ask the question okay, why do I feel guilty? And so then you can address that thing right. And there are a million ways or reasons why you could feel guilty. You might have a good reason to feel guilty, to be honest.

Lauren:

And it's there. And it is there for a reason. If you do something that you regret and don't ever want to do again, because you have that guilty feeling, that's going to help you. You know, not do that again, right, it does lead us towards the life that we want. The issue that I struggle with and I'm still working through and I know a lot of our moms do as well there's they're still working through is the guilt that's perpetual. That's really not changing any of our actions, but it's making us live in the past and have this negative feeling, which then turns into a negative feedback back loop and all of a sudden, a week's passed and we're still in the same spot, maybe even worse, because we haven't done anything. So I want to talk about that, but let me get through it.

Dave:

Are you laughing at me? Yeah, all I can think about is like that is the most frustrating thing ever to watch ever, because, like you said, it doesn't serve. Yes, if you're not using the guilt and you're just sitting in guilt, you feel shitty and you don't get anywhere. Right, like, if you're going to feel shitty, you might as well use it for something, right?

Lauren:

Yes, a springboard into something better.

Dave:

Yes, yes.

Dave:

Actually, I think we just had that conversation and the other flip side is for moms like to be honest, for someone that's around the family and I've been around you when you've had mom guilt and again there is dad guilt and there's just guilt and people feel all sorts of ways. You can sit in your feels however you want, but it sucks other people in, like when mom is radiating guilt and not doing the things for her and we'll get into the ways that Lauren got through it and that you can get through it, the tools, but that just envelops the family, right, and I think that's it's like this crazy vortex where mom is like, well, I wanna be, I'm not gonna take care of myself because I need to put that free time or that time into the family. Well, the family is feeling that guilt and they're actually not feeling better. You're putting time in, but it's really not good time, right, and so it's just it doesn't get you anywhere. It's like a treadmill to nowhere, essentially.

Lauren:

Yeah, the hamster wheel. No, it's true.

Dave:

And Tell me where it comes from. I've cut you off so many damn times, Okay let's go to it.

Lauren:

So the first thing I was talking about was there's this societal pressure, right? Am I fitting in? Is this what we do here? And the thing is is there's also there's a difference between societal pressure, and then there's different cultures who live different ways, so there's like a cultural pressure too. I think that we can, especially now we know how every one in the world and all different cultures live. Like it's easy to be like oh, that's better or worse.

Lauren:

And am I matching up? Am I seeming like a good mom amongst everybody in the world? There's that, but there's also comparison. I think that's a huge one as a mom, Am I a good enough mom? Am I as good as her? Like I know, personally, I got massively stuck in the guilt when Pinterest came out, and I'm not even kidding. I'm looking at all these things that I could barely make my kids a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and I'm like you know this, this is true. I'm looking at these birthday parties and all. There's a comparison aspect. So not only is there societal pressure, cultural pressure, there is comparison.

Dave:

So let me all throw like a real world example. I think and I see this is one place where I do get a little bent Speaking of cultures, it's not the one you're thinking of, it's sports culture.

Lauren:

Yes.

Dave:

Right. So I think a good example is I mean, you can talk about it but like, if you can't be at every game but all the other parents are at the games and you have probably have a good reason. You have multiple kids, you've got something for work, anybody could have something to do. You're not at the game, but I'm assuming and guessing that that makes a lot of people feel guilty, me included.

Lauren:

Yeah, me included as well Absolutely cultural. You're right, in different areas and aspects of what's considered like, quote unquote, normal, right, like we all, as human beings, just want to fit in and be part of everything that's going on. When you do something different, it's easy to ask okay, where am I screwing up here? That guilt comes in.

Dave:

Well, yeah, how about this one? When, like you, go to the game, right, and there's parents that are always front row. They're there early, they're watching warmups, that thing? I'm not that way and I don't think you're that way.

Lauren:

I do like warmups, but yeah.

Dave:

But it, oh, that's a whole nother thing.

Dave:

Talk speaking on use of time, so, but when you start to feel like oh wow so, and so's mom is there early, she's got her face painted in the team colors, Like, does her daughter think? Or does my daughter think? Like, wow, that my friend's mom's more into it than my mom? Like, you start to play these stories in your head of comparison and it's like when did we get to this point? Where and I think people are age right Our parents came to a lot of things. There were about half as many things to go to, and they didn't even always make it to every single thing. And now there's this pressure around us that causes guilt to be everywhere all the time for our kids, which I think is wild.

Lauren:

It's like how did we get here? Yeah, there's a quote and I'm gonna butcher it, because I'm very good at butchering quotes, but it's something about You're better at quotes than you are at peanut butter and jelly.

Dave:

That's true.

Lauren:

No, but it's. You know, we're expected as moms and I'm skin speaking from motherhood but we're expected to mother as if we don't have jobs and have jobs that we don't have kids, and it just feels like there is no. There's something we're always missing, which is gonna bring me to another point that I wanna talk about so really quickly societal pressure, cultural pressure, the other comparison I think those ones are huge. Another one that I'm very guilty of, speaking of guilt, is personal expectation of what I think that I'm supposed to be able to do, the narrative in my head that I'm supposed to be able to do at all. So when I can't, I feel guilty, even though that story may be so far in the fictional world.

Lauren:

Like in what galaxy did I think it was possible to be at three different cities and you know three in one weekend with three different kids? I think there is a personal expectation that we play these pictures in our minds. I'll speak for myself. I play a picture in my mind on this is how it's gonna go and this is how I'm gonna show up, and then it doesn't go that way. So I feel guilty about it. Even though that's a story in the future, it didn't happen, it wasn't fact, it wasn't real, but I'm not living up to my personal ideal, so to speak.

Dave:

Your ideals.

Lauren:

sometimes oh, I think all of us, as moms, our ideals are yeah for sure we've all done it as don't.

Dave:

Hey, this is a parent thing, right? You think everything's. It's like when you go away and I'm left with the boys, it's like, all right, we're going bowling. It's gonna be amazing. Get the kids out. We get there, you know, and five minutes later the competitive nature takes over. One kid gets a strike. I look at my other son. He's got a tear dripping down his face because he hasn't thrown a strike yet, and then it turns into just a brawl right. And then we get in the car. I'm lecturing, I'm threatening, I'm yelling, I'm like what happened? This was supposed to be the perfect night bowling, right? The other thing that I probably ruin for everyone else is I send out the picture. Initially we were like man, we're killing it. Got the boys out bowling tonight, so everyone thinks it went well, and I'm too angry and forgetful at the end to send the picture of us all yelling at each other. So I'm not contributing.

Lauren:

Yeah, we have all have personal expectations and what we expect from ourselves. I think so that's another thing I know for me personally that has contributed. And then the other thing, speaking of being a mom who mothers like I don't work and works like I don't have kids, I used to subscribe to this work-life balance idea and it wasn't until it actually was when I was training for the Olympics. This switch came into my mind. Like we always talk about mindset shifts with the moms that we work with in our program and I remember thinking work-life balance. When I think of balance, I think of a teeter totter. So if I am constantly thinking of this teeter totter, then I always have something to make up, because if I'm working a little bit more, all of a sudden now I'm in the gap of all the mothers, all the mothering I need to do and everywhere I need to be, and all the birthday parties I need to make and the special days out and the movie nights and the family days, and then all of a sudden I do that. Then I'm like, oh, now I'm behind in work and I never felt settled because this idea of balance is impossible. And it wasn't until I changed the word balance, for harmony, that things clicked and I took that pressure off of like, oh, I'm missing things, I'm not being enough for my kids, I'm not being enough for my work, I'm not being enough for you, I'm not being enough for training.

Lauren:

Because when I learned, balance is like a teeter totter, which means you can see if one is higher than the other. I learned to live okay. I'm doing everything I can, no time, it's just everything I can in this area of my life so that I can be a better mom, so that I can train with clarity. Because I'm not worried that I didn't spend enough time with the kids, but I wasn't trying to make them equal, I was trying to make them live harmoniously and that, for me, was a huge shift. So I see people all the time like, hey, there's work, life, balance and I'm like, oh, the word balance I'm just. I try and X-nay it just. It always makes me feel like I'm lacking something or that I have to catch up.

Dave:

That's a huge one, I think, for specifically talking about like putting mom and we'll talk in a second about moms putting like time into themselves and beating that guilty feeling Like you never feel comfortable.

Dave:

If it's always a fight right, that's when you're in trouble and you never wanna put anything to yourself. Because as soon as you feel and it's a mom feeling right, that I haven't put enough time into the kids, it's impossible to do anything but put time into the kids, right. And I think, at the end of the day, the goal, just like the women we coach, is to find presence in wherever you are right. So if you can be with the kids and be present, that fills that bucket up fast so that you can go take care of yourself. And if you can understand and make that shift that you mentioned, that me taking care of myself makes me better, frees me up to be more present with the kids. Like that's the big shift. And we'll talk more about the things I wanna touch real quick, the things and these are the kind of the dangers that people don't think about and I think moms, again, moms, dads, do what you want with it, but we're talking to moms right now.

Lauren:

Well, there's a strong mom part.

Dave:

It is it's the dangers, though, like these are the things that I see, a couple of them and I think one of the ones that mom guilt we don't think about is it. It pulls you into and you can speak to this. It pulls you into yourself in a way, Like you become internal because you don't wanna talk about it, because there's some shame around it, but you withdraw from maybe your spouse and other areas in your life because you're solely focused on being that mom figure and it just like isolates you. Right, it doesn't work.

Lauren:

Yeah, no, I mean isolation and again, we've spoken about this before, but just turtling and going internal and feeling like anything external is so there's so much to it. It's like I can barely do what I need to do for my kids. Like how can I add anything else on my plate? So it's easy just to kind of shrink inside and then with doing that, we cut off the opportunities for us to pour into ourselves that actually give us the energy to give back to our kids. So, yes, it's very easy to go internal, which means I know, even though I still need to be reminded. So I am very open with this.

Lauren:

I have worked very hard to get to where I am in terms of you know, I feel good about myself, my confidence is high. I still have to work at it and I know you are not. Does not take you very long to remind me when I need reminding that, like, go, do what you need to do to take care of yourself. That 45 minutes that you're gonna use to yourself will make this whole household a lot lighter.

Dave:

Yeah, I think that's the danger. When you do, you start to feel a little shame and you feel the guilt. That's when you withdraw and you stop doing the things that made you feel better. So it's like this. It's a terrible. The feedback loop is negative in that space. It's awful to watch.

Lauren:

And.

Dave:

I know it has to be terrible to feel Like it's worse to feel that way, right, yeah, it's like you don't realize you're so narrow-sighted or I don't know how to put it, but you don't see like the answer is in front of you. The answer could be calling a friend. The answer could be the gym. It normally is the gym to be honest and taking care of yourself, and it's just right there, but you can't see it.

Lauren:

Nope, and I think the negative feeling that you get well, I'll speak for myself the negative feeling I get from guilt then just amplifies all the negative aspects of if I were to do something for myself. I don't think of all the benefits, right? So I'm not in that mindset. So the first thing, when you said turtle, or when you said go internal and I call that going into my turtle shell I understand the importance of putting myself on the priority list In addition to my family. There's a reason why we are on Plains and they say if you are traveling with anyone who needs assistance, put your oxygen mask on first, because I am no use to anybody. When I am no use to anybody, when I am negative, when I'm down on, I'm lacking energy.

Dave:

When I am internal, when I've pretty much disconnected, I am no use to anybody you think in that moment, and these are the fixes, right, we're gonna go through what you, your steps to kind of working through this and everyone's gonna find things that work for them. But these I think some of these will work for everyone Putting your, like you said, number one, putting yourself first. So say that again.

Lauren:

Yeah, help, help yourself Right, don't be part of your own problem, and I I know what it's like to contribute to being my own problem is I'm not feeling good. A lot of it comes from I feel guilty, that I haven't done enough, that I need to do more. Have I been there? Have I been helping with homework, you know? Have all of their lunches been good, whatever that may be? Have I spent enough quality time with the kids, whatever that looks like? I understand that I'm only going to be able to give them what I have at that moment. If I have negativity, if I have guilt, guess what they're getting? A negative, guilty mom. So help myself first. Our kids do know now, if they don't find us in the kitchen there or the you know first floor of our house, we're most likely in the gym getting a workout in and I'll say out loud like, hey, I'm gonna go for a run. You know I I need to create my own energy here and I come back a better mom.

Dave:

But I need to help myself first would you say that that exercise is the number one way for you?

Lauren:

exercise is definitely the number one way that I get into a better mental state, where I feel more productive, where I don't have such a negative Aura around me where, like my mommy, guilt goes away because once I've worked out, I now have the energy to do all the things that in my head I think I should be doing. Right, that gap I can now fill Because I tell our kids all the time energy creates energy. I can't just expect, sit there and expect to have all the energy if I don't do something to create it. So there's two reasons why working out well. Here's here are two reasons why I think working out Really helped me feel better about myself, which again puts me in a more positive state.

Lauren:

Number one, obviously, the actual workout itself, right, the endorphins that I get. I feel strong that the actual Movement part of my workout 100% changes my physiology. I even remember training for softball my coach, when I was in a negative state, my coach said to me Lauren, you're not thinking your way out of this, right, you got to change your state, change your physio. Physiologically, you need to change. So that is huge. But the other thing that I think people forget that is really helpful to me is it builds my confidence. I know I just did something for myself and when I know I did something, I took action, I took care of myself. I can show up more confident, like, hey, kids, look what I just did, right. Like, yes, I was feeling down and now I went and did this and now I feel great, I was part of my own rescue, and I think that is extremely confidence building, in addition to not only how I changed Physiologically, so helping myself, working out.

Lauren:

Sometimes it is calling my family or calling a friend, something that gives Me energy, because one thing that I try and explain to moms is we can't give something to our kids If we don't have it. So how, if I'm, if I'm walking around and full-on Guilt and just negative, if I should have done this and I wish I'd done that and that's literally all I have. So that's all they get for me, right? I'm not giving them the good stuff. So help when I help myself in a way where I know I can show up with that energy, with that confidence, with a clear head, with logic, because I I'm like thinking clearly again. Then I feel like they get me the real me and then my guilt goes away. It does, it's crazy.

Dave:

It's interesting. I think a lot of the a lot of the time moms think like it's the time I need to put time to my kids and I think there's a huge distinction between time and quality time and present time. And so if you're in in your brain, if you're thinking while I'm, you know there's a gap there. I'm, I'm behind, I need to spend a few hours with my kids. Like you're just only thinking of those hours. If you would step away For 30 minutes, 45 minutes and change your state and feel better about yourself, the the time, the extra time, that hour and 15 minutes would be much more memorable, more productive, better for the kids and Everybody would win. You would feel better and the kids, rather than just an awful two hours with the kids.

Dave:

And this can happen on a daily basis. Right, and I think you do. You build up a bank Over time if you can put the practice, the training practice did. Honestly, eating well, treating yourself well with Nutrition, is another big piece. Yeah, I think people forget, right, they just look at time. Yeah, I need to be with my kids. Well, you know, you need to be great with your kids, present with your kids.

Lauren:

Yeah and I, I feel that and and you're right, it's there's time, and then there's quality time, there's time, there's attention, and I think we do put an emphasis on just the blanket statement of time. I will forever take a one-hour block and if I am Blah and dull and negative, I will take that. I'd rather go 20 minutes and for a hard run and then spend 40 solid minutes with the kids, no question.

Dave:

I have another question. You touched on this and I want I want you to talk about it for a second. You mentioned putting time into yourself and feeling like it changes the way you think about yourself, like it gives you confidence, but you feel like you're worth it in a way, right yeah?

Lauren:

I think when I invest in myself, in any capacity and that could be with time, it could be with energy Right, it could be time in a gym, it could be energy, it could be financially if I decide, hey, I'm gonna hire that coach, I'm gonna, you know, call this mentor up and see if he can fit me into a schedule, I'm showing myself that I am worth that. And it's very easy. And this is where guilt comes in, right, mommy, guilt. It's very easy to get into this. Well, I'm not worth the time, I'm not worth the energy, I'm not worth the money, I'm not worth any of this.

Lauren:

And then when we don't, well, I'll say, when I don't put time towards myself, when I don't use any energy on myself, I'm just proving to myself that I'm not worth it. It's a, it's a, it's a loop, and so I think it's extremely. That's that's why I I split. My workout is is in two different things, and you just said it a different way. I guess I've never considered it that way, but the workout itself makes me feel better. But the fact that I know I did something for myself, yeah, raise confidence changing your physical state.

Dave:

But showing yourself You're worth it, yeah, is such a massive piece and, like you said there, it comes in different forms. Right, it could be exercise, eating well, giving yourself a little break and spending time with family. To me, honestly, for me personally, investing in a coach and and showing myself that I'm worth getting better in anything. It could be a lot of times recently it's business, but it's been mindset for large chunks.

Dave:

Hmm, I think and that's the dangerous place that we find a lot of moms is, once you cut yourself off and and succumb to the guilt for long enough, you start to really have embedded feelings of I'm not worth it, and the only way To get out of that feeling of I'm not worth it is to show yourself that you're worth it. And that's when it's the hardest, because you're fighting this internal feeling of I'm not worth it, I'm not worth it, and so what we do is give moms an opportunity to invest in themselves Emotionally, with training and coaching and all of that. And it's so hard sometimes because they're just stuck with I'm not worth it. Well, you have to break the cycle and show yourself You're worth it in some way, right?

Lauren:

Yeah, you got to help yourself, you got to be part of your own rescue. And just that, just that moment of saying I'm going to do this, I'm signing up, I'm in the car because I'm going to that class. I mean, I'm in my cozy, you know, chair reading a book, even though I know there's lots going on, but I need that time to myself. Just by doing that. It's an action. You do. We do have to create the action, because I do think we mistake. I'll speak for myself. I can mistake intention with action. I have a lot of good intentions sometimes, but it doesn't help me if I don't actually act on that intention. It's that action that then shows me oh, okay, like when I get on that treadmill or step outside and do it, my shoes or load the you know hex bar up with a ton of weight, that action is like, okay, like I am doing this, I'm worth it, I'm helping myself. It's very, it's extremely confidence build.

Dave:

It's an extreme confidence builder. Thank, you. I'm here for the vocabulary and grammar. Um, all right. So, number one, help yourself. Hit me with it. Give me, what else have you done? Let's go be useful, you can do it.

Lauren:

I have opened my eyes to sharing responsibility in a way that is beneficial to all. No, as opposed to, I think with with mommy guilt and me, I think I should do everything well should be on me. I should do that. I should do this Like it should, like I. There is a way to share responsibility which is, again, it's a feed forward loop of giving energy and energy comes back and allowing others to help. It's huge. So, sharing responsibility, one of the things that could be sharing responsibility with what the kids should be doing and I know you tell me this all the time right, I went to go train and I left for a whole well, five months and I came home and the kids were doing all their own laundry. I cause you in state you, you put that into place. I would be like, oh, I've got a lot, I got a lot of laundry to do. But sharing responsibility isn't taking burden and putting it on people unnecessarily. That's what we think, that's what I used to think. Now I understand our kids know how to do laundry.

Dave:

They knew how to do laundry. Since you've been back, they haven't done very much of their own laundry. They did.

Lauren:

they've done less, but they do Well, no, that's not true. We did a whole thing where one did the lawn, took out the, or one took out the trash, one did the dishes and one did the laundry for a whole week at a time. Side note for any parents who want their kids to do chores not saying we're the world's best at it, but the one thing that has helped us a lot is bulking it Instead of saying everyone has to do laundry and dishes and and trash every day. We just did a week and it's like you know, it's the kids duty for a week. So there's no like who's, is it? It was you know. Anyways, long story short, they were way better at doing laundry when I didn't enable them when I did. I am not as good as as you at sharing the responsibility Again it's a bit of, it's a mindset shift.

Dave:

It's just like it's counterintuitive in a way. It's just like pouring time into yourself is actually better for the kids. Like, if you really want to erase guilt and do the best for the kids, you're going to take care of yourself first. Right it's. It's no different than thinking well, actually, what's great for the kids is giving them responsibility. Yes, it's counterintuitive because you think, well, you're, you're. It's a bit of the snow plow, right, Essentially, you need, you need to have them feel good about themselves and giving them by giving them responsibility.

Lauren:

Yes, I actually just had a conversation with a friend of mine about this exact situation. You know, it's very easy to think that we are hard on our kids when really we're just teaching them regular living tools. I think it's it's so easy to do it for them. It's just like when they, when they tie their own shoes, you're like, hey, we got places to be, let me just tie it for you. And then all of a sudden you have a 10 year old who can't tie their own shoes because they've never had to. And then we're like, well, just get Velcro, it's a lot easier.

Lauren:

I think sharing responsibility, again through the lens of mommy guilt, is me being worried that I'm not doing enough, that I should do it all when I, when I do share responsibility and I am still working on it I am a work in progress. Dave reminds me often I am a work in progress. But my guilt lessons when I share responsibility and I understand that, no, our kids are old enough. They should be able to unload the dishwasher, they should be able to sort their laundry. They might need help reaching the detergent, but I mean not anymore, I guess, but share responsibility when I do, it feels good. It's just getting to that point.

Dave:

Do you think, just total off the cuff question, do you think that you doing all the things and moms in general doing all the things is tied into their sense of like self, like their value as a mom? Do they? Do you think that's something, that's like I'm doing more so I'm more valuable as a mom? Cause I think a lot, of a lot of women probably find value in being a mom Right, like the caretaker and doing the things.

Lauren:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I do, I do. I think that's a that's a great point, I think that's a huge thing that that keeps us and and me wanting to be part of doing all of that. I know I like to see things around the house. You, I know you laugh at me, but I like to see things around the house, like I liked doing laundry. I guess I don't love doing laundry all the time, but I like seeing something completed and done and I, I did that and I was part of of the household working and yeah, like I, I I like to take care of of things around the house. I like to take care of the kids.

Dave:

I like to be the one that they I know, but do you think it's because it makes you feel more valuable as a mom?

Lauren:

I yeah, yeah, it's like active.

Dave:

It's like activity is valued rather than like outcome.

Lauren:

sometimes yeah, activity versus productivity, like just.

Dave:

Yeah, it's like if you go to the. It's like you go to the gym. Right, Talking about the outcome versus the amount of work that goes in, you would rather go in and do all the work and not have the outcome. Right, if you just ran on the treadmill, you slogged on the treadmill for 45 minutes and you didn't raise your heart rate, you didn't build any muscle or lift anything heavy. That feels like you've done more, you've exercised more than if you went in for 15 minutes and hit the weights and then did some bike sprints. Right that shorter workouts much more valuable to you, but it might not feel like you put in all this time and energy and work right.

Dave:

And so you're like oh, I crushed that long workout. You feel value there. Yeah, I think that's like work in, in parenting, in motherhood 100%.

Lauren:

I think this is. It's funny. I never know what you're going to say. So this is great. I think this is where actually sitting back and planning and asking yourself what does a successful family look like to you? Like what? What? Would you go to bed with your head on the pillow? Are you happy with how the day went Right?

Dave:

So I. So here's one. I and that's why I like this conversation I think I appreciate the way you're looking at it. I, I think when I I don't know if I have to lay down on the pillow to think about it, but I'm thinking more like, okay, in five years, what's like, what can I do today that is most bringing the value in five years? Not like, how did I feel today for the kids? It's because it's the same thing. It's like that shorter workout. It might not feel like you've put this stuff in today, but if you stack a bunch of those workouts in a year, you're going to be jacked and lean.

Lauren:

Yeah, yeah.

Dave:

Right, and it's like parenting, it's like the thing of letting the kids do the stuff, like let them do the stuff so as they get older they they're functional in a in a world that's not always going to be easy.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Dave:

And that's, I think, maybe a different way. I would say I always misspeak and say better, but and then I tell them, you know you know where I'm coming from.

Lauren:

I do, I do, but I think, when we're talking about feeling valuable, like if I feel valuable around the house, it's hard for me to live five years in the future.

Dave:

So that's the mindset shift, I think. If you think, if you look at it, you trick your. You don't trick yourself. It's back to the workouts, cause those are the easiest things. An example you can find analogies and examples from true training and nutrition for everything in life. So you have to convince yourself, or start to understand on a deep level, that that 15 minutes shorter lifting and sprinting is beneficial. It doesn't feel it initially because we're conditioned to think like, oh, time is I put in more time, so that's better. So if you can lay down every night and say you know what I the kids did a bunch for themselves. Today I didn't do as much, but I put some pressure on them and so they learned a new skill or they started to take more responsibility. And so if you can shift into understanding like less is more, I agree.

Lauren:

So I think we're saying the same thing.

Lauren:

What I'm saying yeah, I think we're saying the same. I think we're saying the same thing because what I'm saying is, if I can sit back and and look and have like a bird's eye view of how I want my day to go, knowing that that's the best day, I will feel more at peace. If I know that I'm doing something that's beneficial, I will feel more at peace. What the problem with me sometimes is I'm really narrow minded and I and I'm very um, when I say narrow minded, I'm, I'm very like. My vision is just I only see laundry. It needs to be done. I don't look at the big picture.

Lauren:

So I think we're saying the same thing is what's what's successful in our home? Do I have to be the one, do I have to be the one that does a laundry, or does a laundry just need to be done? And when, looking at a bird's eye view, what's the best thing for a family? I think, what's what's the best today? I, well, in my opinion, what's the best today is the best day. The best today is the best in five years. Right, it's just I have to get out of that feeling that I have to be the one that does everything, and if not, then I'm coming short as a mom.

Dave:

So you need to detach from that feeling.

Lauren:

Yeah, and again, that's where. Again it's where, that's where comparison comes. Well, you know, this mom over here did 94 loads of laundry and, and you know, did all the pinterest like it's. You look at what you think you should do.

Dave:

So this is the we've let off with and these are the two of the biggest needle movers in terms of detaching from the mom guilt, and they're both reframes right. They're reframing into putting myself first is actually best for the kids, and the second one is asking for help or getting others to help. Whether it's the kids or outside help is actually better for the kids.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Dave:

Right and and those are tough mindset shifts to make it If you are knee deep and pinterest if you're surrounded by social media. So what's the best way to make those shifts permanent?

Lauren:

Surround yourself with people who consider those things.

Lauren:

The best ways to make those things permanent would be yeah, the best ways to make mindset shifts around putting yourself first and sharing responsibility in the home, at work, wherever it may be, is by surrounding yourself by with people who support that, by surrounding yourself with people who consider you working out is normal. If you surround yourself with someone who runs every morning, if you go for a run in every morning, they're going to go awesome. There's going to be no resistance there. That's going to be considered normal. It's going to be easier for you to to do that. I again, every episode I'm saying it environment is the invisible hand that shapes you.

Lauren:

If you want change, positive change, if you want to be someone who is able to feed into yourself and pour into your own cup so you can pour into others, surround yourself with people who are doing it, who support it, because you'll find ways and you can be creative and you can and there won't be the judgment of oh well, I can't believe you took that time away. If you're surrounding yourself with people who think you should never do anything for yourself, of course you're going to feel guilty. We talked to like. That's the whole tribal mentality is. You don't want to be the weird one, you don't want to be the one that's kicked out of the tribe. That meant a long time ago that you had no chance for survival. So find those people that consider you taking care of yourself normal.

Lauren:

I think it's really important. I can tell you this right now, when I go hang around my friends we'd actually just took a trip to see our friends. They live in Austin. I absorb their energy and they take care of themselves. They eat well their energy. Their outlook on life is positive and guess what I came home? I was super excited to work out, eat well. My outlook on life was good, like you are who you surround yourself with. So make that the norm, and that's why I'm hell bent on finding mentors, finding coaches, finding groups who are trying to live a similar life as us.

Dave:

Agree, that's a huge one. So those three points in concert didn't expect me to say that did you?

Lauren:

I see you.

Dave:

When you put those three together it gets a lot easier and, honestly, it goes a long way in dampening or enabling you to work with mommy guilt. So there is one more that I want to touch on quickly and that is and everyone can kind of play along, but when you specifically would get into these kind of ruts of mommy guilt or these spaces, it becomes a negative thought loop or you start to tell yourself the stories that, right, and from the women that I have talked to and I I'm not just saying the women that I talked to, but in our program I've talked to a thousand plus moms, so I'm very familiar and living with it, right, so I get it Sorry, and Lauren's worth a thousand conversations, right, the level that we've gotten to. So one of the biggest things is these negative thought loops and being able to play with them. So talk about that a little bit.

Lauren:

Yeah, so when you're saying that, again, I didn't know where you were going, but there is a photo. I put it, I've put it on my Instagram, I've put it in our with the mom, I've shared it with the moms we've worked with, I put it on Facebook, I've put it places. There's a photo of uh, it's like a cartoon drawing of a daughter and a mom holding a hand, holding hands, walking away, and there's a thought bubble and out of the moms thought bubble is am I doing enough? You know, am I? I don't even know. It's a billion things, like am I helping her with her homework enough? And, you know, am I there enough? And it's all of these things. And then the one thought bubble coming from the little girl is I just love her.

Lauren:

And I do think we have all of these thoughts and generally, again, negative thoughts that float through our heads, that create these crazy stories that are negative, and a lot of times I've realized they're. They're irrational, like they're not. They're not anywhere near what is going actually going on in our family dynamic, right, like I've had these thoughts where it's like, oh my gosh, the kids would be better off without me. They deserve a more present mom, they deserve it. I go through these now I'm thinking of a very irrational thoughts, but it's easy to project what I'm thinking and think that that's what everybody else is thinking is I'm not doing enough, I'm not there enough. I'm, you know, working too much. I'm, you know, when I, when I go, when I, when I left sorry, when I left and trained for for Tokyo, you know, I, I was an absentee mom, like all of these thoughts, and in reality that was my, my mind was playing tricks on me, if that's a way to say it.

Lauren:

There is a saying and I hope this helps you, whoever's listening, I hope this helps you. There's a saying that I had to tell myself often and that is when I would go through these irrational thought loops and felt really guilty and I'm terrible and I'm this, and I'd get real kind of stressed and anxious because that's what comes for me, that's what came with mom, guilt, the anxious feeling, the, the stomach, queasy, yeah, just like negative, negative, negative. I would have to remind myself like Lauren, you can change this, you're not in any danger, you're not being chased by a great white shark. Just go do whatever I need to do. Just go hang and go to Grace's room. Go work out. The answers are simple, but I made these huge stories that didn't help me whatsoever. I don't know if that's where you were going.

Dave:

Yeah, no, I think those negative thoughts are paralyzing.

Lauren:

Oh, very. It's a loop, it's a negative loop. Then, when you feel bad, you do nothing, then you feel worse, so then you feel even. Then you feel bad, so then you feel worse, or you do nothing, and then and it's really difficult to get out of that and it's really. You know what else is really difficult? It's difficult to understand that my thoughts is not what everybody else is thinking Like. I just I considered my thoughts as fact. I'm a terrible mom. I thought that was a fact. And then I would, you know, go into Grace's room and she'd go hi, mom, I love you. And it'd be like well, wait, I'm, but I'm a terrible mom, right? And it's the things that it's hard to understand that what we think is just our thoughts, it's not actually reality. That was a tough one for me.

Lauren:

As you like to say, feelings aren't facts but I think they are still working through that.

Dave:

Everyone works through that Right Again, I think it's there is a mom dad split, right. I think moms are probably a touch more emotional sometimes.

Lauren:

I am. Let's speak to you I think it's very dynamic.

Dave:

I think it's very easy for me, when you do get into those spaces, like it's very easy for me to recognize because I'm not in that malaise or I'm not in that muck in your brain and so from the outside, it's like you said, grace is like oh hi, mom, I love you. Like to her, everything's great, right, like to me it's very easy to distinguish between, like what you're claiming, your claims, so you claim, and then like what's actually going on? Because I'm like, I'm like Grace in that scenario, right, like I'm not seeing what you're seeing and it's in the problem for you.

Lauren:

Oh, tell me you've created this.

Dave:

feelings isn't. Feelings aren't facts. You've said it so many times in the program that now we all just parrot it back to you and it. It sucks for you, but feelings aren't facts, lauren. Yeah, I know.

Lauren:

I know I don't feel like I'm not enough, I'm not there enough, and again I think it's. I just I just look in a comparison the expectations, what we think we should do, our ideals All of these are coming in to play this narrative of why I don't think I'm enough. Because if you think about, about people a long time ago, I, I, I would imagine and I do believe studies have shown this that anxiety is on the rise and this guilt and feeling like we always have to do what everybody's doing in order to be a good parent. I do think it's on the rise, it's challenging too.

Dave:

It's interesting to wonder if, like you, you have to think I'm guessing that my grandmother wasn't super concerned, that she wasn't being a good mom, and I obviously can't go back and jump into her brain space, but like as we go on, and maybe it's because social media and like that, societal peace, and we, when we say societal I think social media, all the, not just social media but TV images.

Dave:

Yeah the perfect family right, like if you're old, like me, like the huckstables I'm not quite as respected these days, by the way. Do you know what I'm saying, though? Like you're just inundated with, like the perfect mom, everything's perfect, and so in, especially in society now, like a large portion of women work Um, or there's so many different places for for mom to be that it's like it's just the deck seems stacked against. So let's say that you understand what's the best way to move through the confusion between feeling and facts, like what's an action step there?

Lauren:

the, an action step to Move between feel is it a feeling or is it a fact? Well, communication, I'd be number one. I'm Just spitballing here of my own. I think sometimes my feelings, they become Fact because I'm only talking to myself. I talk to myself a lot.

Lauren:

For anyone out there, if you talked yourself out loud, I am with you. I talk to myself out loud. You come into the room and then he's day full, say who you talking to and I'll say me, and then I won't tell him what I'm talking about. I talk to myself. So, communication and just expressing how I'm feeling, so I can have some Different perspective, because otherwise I get my perspective and then my perspective, and then my perspective and that's it. So, communication on how I'm feeling, what I'm seeing, because there have been plenty of times when I will tell you a story and why I'm not showing up as a mom like I should be, and you will say, okay, give me an example and try to walk me through it, and I'm like well, because I just know that's what it is and I don't actually have A solid reason. It's my mind has been going and going and going and going and I've gone down this rabbit hole that I'm not even on Real, I'm not in reality. So communication would be number one. What else?

Dave:

I think, flushing. So this is an I Suggest. This doesn't happen very often, but I honestly think a lot of times just writing down the thing right, because when you write it on a piece of paper and look at it, yeah you can sometimes see how ridiculous the thought is. Yeah, that's making you feel guilty, right?

Lauren:

Yes, and I think it's it's. It's so true. When we have we have moms in our program do this, it's called a brain dump actually. When you actually write it out as a, as a, and you have words and you have to concisely Write what you're what you're thinking, it's a whole different ball game because your thoughts can go from one to the other another and it's bouncing and it can spiral very quickly. But when you do, when you write it down, and then you're like wait a minute, is that really? Is that really what I'm thinking? Yeah, that's, that's a huge one. Writing it down, flushing it out, I don't do that so much right now. I used to, used to do that a lot, but I haven't done that for a while.

Dave:

It's because you're feeling guilty and you haven't communicated or exercised.

Lauren:

It's not sure I've been exercising.

Dave:

Oh, I like that one the most and that's I mean, I think that's a huge action step.

Lauren:

All right, are we wrapping up here?

Dave:

I think we just crushed dig it so real quick in some you've said almost everything.

Lauren:

Okay, what have I missed?

Dave:

what if you could tie, put a bow on it? What would be the biggest thing? The first kind of step if someone's stuck in that guilty rut?

Lauren:

The first thing when I am stuck in a guilty rut and I become aware that I'm there because sometimes I get into a rut and I don't even know. Once I'm aware that I'm in in that guilty rut, the very first thing I do to get myself out of it is ask myself how is this helping me? If the guilt is valid and I did something I shouldn't have done, if I made a bad choice that that was not, I will ask myself what did I learn? Because lessons learn, don't repeat themselves. You actually learn and then you move on. I'll ask myself what I learn and then I'll move on, but leaving the guilt.

Lauren:

But I have to leave the guilt behind because I have to ask myself what is this doing for me? Is this gonna going to, in the future, make me better? Is this going to, is this feeling right now Going to make me better? So one become aware to ask myself what is this doing for me? And if it isn't serving me, if I'm just in a washing machine of negativity, that I'm there again the next day and the next day, I'll have to ask myself and sometimes, sometimes I have to have a real hard conversation with myself, like, yeah, I've been, it's true right back to you, talking to yourself 100%.

Lauren:

But yeah, I think that's the number one thing is asking yourself what is this doing for me? And if it's not moving you forward, then you have to figure out Okay. Well, what can I do to help myself to get out of here? Can I exercise? Can I?

Dave:

you have to do that, you have to help, you have to put yourself.

Lauren:

Yeah, but ask yourself what is it for you? For me, it's exercise. For the majority of moms, I know it's exercise because it changes your physiology. Number one and number two it proves you're worth it. We talked about that.

Dave:

I think on a long term, like we need to zoom out just for a second, like Okay, and on a long term, like it's one thing to pull yourself out of a Day of mommy guilt, it's another thing to live without it or live with minimal minimal mommy guilt right, and that's building a routine around taking care of yourself. It's making a consistent practice of putting yourself first. It's not just a one-off go to the gym, right.

Lauren:

Yeah, it's the same reason why.

Dave:

What's it?

Lauren:

Great question. The same reason why we tell moms to Exercise, eat well, journal. When things are going really well, right. A lot of times people are like, oh, I need to make a change because something's wrong. No, even when things are going really well, it's like going to therapy. Why do I need to go back to therapy? I'm feeling great. No, you keep doing the things because that does create the habit and that habit does help you get out of difficult emotions A lot easier.

Lauren:

So the routine, just knowing right down, we have mom sometimes write down the three non-negotiables, because sometimes getting rid of mommy guilt's really thinking taking care of myself oh my gosh, this seems overwhelming. No, just what are three non-negotiables, right? And then just do that. Hey, it's move, it's drink extra water and it's read a book. Maybe if you were getting rid of mommy guilt, it's one meaningful conversation with each of your kids, move and get enough sleep, like I think sometimes we make it a lot more, a lot bigger, right. A lot of times we just need to break it down To take care of yourself. Just break it down and just do the first step. Then, when you got that, do the next step. I'm probably going off on a tangent, we can wrap this up. I want to wrap it up by saying it's you just wrapped it up.

Lauren:

Another tangent, just be aware, I'm aware now of is this, you know, am I comparing myself? Is there an expectation, an ideal that I think I'm supposed to live up to? The cultural, like, the culturally like. This sports is a perfect example, you know. Am I worried that this Sport culture over here is doing all the things and am I Making myself feel guilty because I'm not doing exactly what they're doing? Is that who I want to be? Is that the culture I want to be a part of? Um, and honestly, changing the word balance for harmony, like, just be, be careful of the word balance, not saying it, not saying that's the perfect answer for everyone, but I will say it really changed, changed the way I thought of, of guilt especially you have one ask what is it?

Lauren:

If you like this podcast, please Like subscribe leave a review.

Dave:

We need to review, that's what we do share um, all of it, we're gonna have some good guests coming up, all sorts of things but we really just want to get the word out and create some harmony, create some harmony for moms.

Lauren:

Yeah, lower that guilt. Feel good, when we feel good we can show up, and when we can show up, that's. That's all our kids need right. Our kids need us.

Dave:

All right until the next one.