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The Working Mums Podcast
Teaching working mums mind & emotional management tools so they enjoy their kids, their job & themselves again without all the shitty mum guilt.
The Working Mums Podcast
Ep #34 - Understanding men series - interview with Jonny Bevan
Ever wondered how societal norms shape men's emotional lives and the impact this has on their well-being? Join me as I kick off a heartfelt conversation with my husband, Jonny Bevan, exploring his personal journey of emotional growth. As a mother of two boys, I'm passionate about creating a space where men can see their emotions as strengths. Jonny dives deep into the pressures men face to suppress feelings like anxiety and nervousness and shares how acknowledging these emotions has profoundly changed his life.
Anger and fear are emotions we all deal with, but do men face unique challenges in expressing them? We break down the societal expectations that dictate how men should handle these emotions, often leading to burnout and emotional distress. Drawing from our experiences in the police force, Jonny and I discuss the internal versus external processes of feeling and expressing emotions, and how lack of guidance can make managing fear and anxiety even more difficult for men. Our candid stories highlight the importance of understanding and addressing these emotions to foster mental health and resilience.
From grappling with DIY frustrations to raising emotionally balanced children, this episode undercovers the value of asking for help and recognizing one's limitations. We explore how anger often masks deeper feelings of fear, and the importance of processing emotions without judgment. By modeling emotional vulnerability and authenticity as parents, we set a powerful example for our kids, showing them that experiencing a full range of emotions is not only normal but healthy. Tune in to gain insights on building a supportive community that champions emotional growth and expression for everyone, especially the men in our lives.
You can also watch this episode on YouTube with Captions - https://www.youtube.com/@TheWorkingMumsLifeCoach
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I have something a little bit different for you this week. I have been thinking a lot about the men in our world and having two boys of my own. It is one of my passions to help influence a world where men, where it's safe for men to have emotions, where it's safe for anyone actually to have an experience their emotions and I feel so incredibly fortunate to be surrounded by some really incredible, brave, strong, loving men who have a slight different view on things. And this podcast is for I dedicate it to working mums. This podcast is for I dedicate it to working mums, but as a working mum, as a woman in this world, I think it can be incredibly insightful to have an understanding of life from a male perspective.
Nicky:So I'm going to be doing a series of interviews with some of the gorgeous men in my life and I'm going to be sharing with just drip feeding them throughout my podcast episodes. It's my intention for all of us to create a world where it is safe for any person, any human on our planet, to have and experience their emotions, because when we do that, we are so much stronger, stronger, so much more resilient than when we try and hide them away, avoid them, or or or try not to feel them. So, with that in mind, here's one of the episodes. Welcome to this week's podcast and, like I said in the introduction, I am interviewing a number of significant men. In my life, I feel fortunate to be surrounded by some incredible men, and I thought it was only right to have the first interviewee be my husband, so I would like to welcome Johnny Bevan general I don't know if you can hear that thank you.
Jonny:Thank you very much. It's an honor to be on here thanks.
Nicky:So this is quite unusual, like this is quite funny when we do things like this, isn't it, johnny? Because I'm sat up in the office, johnny's sat downstairs in the kitchen. We we had tried recording this already, but we had to just send our children into the lounge because they were being too noisy. But, um, I've, we've got lots of things to talk about and Johnny's going to be on this podcast a number of times, hopefully. But I really wanted to have a conversation, a discussion with you around men and men's emotions, because I really feel like I've coached a lot of men.
Nicky:A lot of my most of my clients are men, actually and I really feel like we live in a society where men have been conditioned that they should not have emotions, that emotions are a sign of weakness, that they have to somehow be the knight in shining armour.
Nicky:So, growing up, we all heard about Rapunzel and Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty and how the prince came to rescue her, and so I just wondered being as you are, you're quite important to me and I think you're quite incredible and especially having, especially having watched your journey from how you used to be before we started coaching um, to how you are now with your emotions, and when I hear you talking with some of your friends about the, your emotions, I just think more women and more men need to hear men talking about emotions. So because I having two boys, it is I get quite passionate about them growing up, growing up in a world where anxiety isn't a sign to stop. Anxiety maybe is a sign to move forward with, you know, with awareness, or nervousness isn't a reason to hold ourselves back. It's a sign to move forward. And it's OK to cry, it's OK to express love and talk about love. So here we are.
Jonny:Here we are. Yeah, I think for me. I think I don't think we've been told not to feel emotions, but I think we've been told to feel certain ones, and so for me it was always like anger, um, like didn't not, like never liked feeling scared, um, and if I was, and it was always like it wasn't just, but interesting, it wasn't feeling anger, it was reacting to anger. It's always like it wasn't just, but interestingly, it wasn't feeling anger, it was reacting to anger. So, almost like I was taught that if you feel that, go and get it out, do something, smash something up, do you know? Do and do something to express that.
Jonny:But what I've learned is there's a massive difference between expressing it and feeling it. Like feeling it is just noticing how it feels in the body. No one teaches you how to do that. What you see is the expression of it, as in they're really angry and you feel like you want to vent something and I used to have like a real urge to break something and I've done it where I broke keyboards, I think, a couple of times, not a lot, because I would really, because I would have a lot of shame about doing it actually.
Jonny:But no, cut what. At least once I've smashed a cup or something, you go, oh, that's good. But I was sort of brought up to um, express that anger and get it out. But no one ever taught me how to feel fear, how to feel anxiety or um, anything like that. And and then I think there's a lot of discomfort around talking about it.
Jonny:I didn't like, even when I started coaching and I suddenly realized how important feelings were and I'd be like crikey, yeah, this is like the, the keystone, the directive. You know that why I do everything or why I don't do everything. But I noticed even when I first started talking about it, I would go, I'd be talking more about the thoughts and changing it rather than going how are you feeling? And sitting with that feeling. But it's really now the cornerstone of my coaching. I realized that if people aren't willing, if you've got certain feelings you want to fill, you don't necessarily have to go and fill them. But if there's something you want to do, something you want to fill, you don't necessarily have to go and fill them. But if there's something you want to do, something you want to achieve, when you actually look at it you're probably going to experience emotions. You don't, you may be avoided before, and if you're not willing to fill them, you just keep your mind in a cycle so I've actually gone.
Jonny:This is the best thing ever, because I notice when I'm, you know, feeling nervous, anxious and all I'll say, I feel scared. But it's still a challenge to say that to other people or to have that vulnerability, because I think, as men, you're seen as strong. I think as men you're seen as strong, you know, and I grew up where I was probably softer in nature but if you had a problem, if you were being bullied, you know you just go fine, punch him in the face, whatever. But that was never really in my nature. So it is interesting seeing the difference now.
Jonny:And even, I know, sitting in the police this is a bit of a sweeping statement, but things I've seen is as the bloke turning up not all the time, because there's women that are very hands-on first in there. It's not sort of a sexist, sweeping comment, but I've had it where you turn up and there's an expectation that you were the one going to step forward. And I'm going to a couple of jobs, like with other girls, and they go well, you don't care, you're just gonna, you just get stuck in. And and I've heard it where I've seen it where a guy, a big, and he was a big old lump and he was obviously scared, as a lot of blokes do. I think we compensate by get bigger because then we're not gonna be threatened.
Jonny:And then but he was taking a step back and this girl was like, well, he should be dealing with it, almost like you're big and strong.
Jonny:There's some confrontation. You should deal with it and thinking like that not that I think I'm particularly big, but if you are big or like I was, did a lot of judo so I'm pretty capable, like in those situations but it's almost then that well, you don't feel scared and and having that pressure I think is okay when you're younger and a bit like not okay, I don't say young people should do that, but for me it was okay because you sort of rise to that occasion, but especially in my job in the police, as you get older and you might be going oh, I don't maybe feel so comfortable going in and rolling around with this person. I think then you resist and you resent fear and emotions like that think is a weakness and then then it's toxic and it leads to burnout. And that happened to one of my close friends. He was big, burly, strong lad suddenly started fearing jobs he was going to because he had that fear, didn't know how to deal with it, and he got um. You know it just affected him.
Jonny:He burnt completely out yeah yeah, so that's what I find with it and talking about it. It's interesting actually, because you never really realise until you talk about it. But that is the expectation, but, interestingly, the expectation you hold of yourself and how you deal with it. So I used to deal with fear by running headlong into it. I'd make sure I was at the front of the thing because I wanted to be seen as someone that was at the front and going in. But when you have got back away there's always times in your life especially this physical confrontation you you know the sensible thing is to maybe take a step back. Then you'd feel the shame coming in and that and almost like it feels better to go headlong into that danger rather than experience the shame so where does the shame come from when you say I'd rather go headlong into that?
Jonny:I think it's that it's that fear of what other people think and that you're not strong enough, um, and that you're weak. You're weak, you know, especially if you're someone that's gone. Actually, I take this stuff on and you're not really addressing the fear. I felt fear all the time, but you wouldn't feel like it. But suddenly, when that fear gets stronger, maybe, and you take a, I remember so, for example, I I remember once we stopped search, someone stopped them, and I felt like they were going to kick off, um, and I remember putting my hands on him and my leg was shaking, bouncing. Now I know, now I still have, I still have a shake and I I realize I'm quite, as you all know, I'm quite, uh, um, I suppose, energetic, like I get quite focused and hyped, but what I realize is often, when I can't expel that I have like loads of adrenaline hit in my body.
Jonny:Well, back then I remember my leg was shaking and this guy went what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? He said you're shaking and I was like, oh, and I couldn't stop it. I was trying to stop it and it's like shaking more, and then the guy I was working with said, oh, don't worry. Almost like it was like an erectile dysfunction problem Don't worry, it happens to everyone like well, as if there was something, and I took that I don't know if he meant that he's probably just been really very sure, but I took that to mean there's something wrong with this. I shouldn't be feeling it, he's not shaking and of course, and it's something that would really show in me.
Jonny:But whereas now I find what has happened because I'm more open to my emotions and I know I'm talking about more physical confrontations here, but we'll come on to day to day stuff when I go there now because I'm more open to the fear, and I go, oh, here we go, and I can feel the adrenaline in my hand start shaking, my voice goes because I've got a completely different relationship with it, and I go, yeah, I'm scared with it.
Jonny:And I go, yeah, I'm scared and this isn't, this is actually what's preparing me, because I know, because what I used to find is, when it did all kick off, I was the first one in and I would normally deal with it. So actually, what I realized is this fear is nothing to shame, it's very normal and it helps me. It really helps me, um, but I think we're not taught how to feel fear. We're taught how to be brave, and I think you better be to be courageous than brave. So brave being I always think of brave as in you don't feel fair you know you might go and do something when you're brave.
Jonny:It's okay because I don't have to feel fear because I'm brave courage. Courage is when you go. Oh, I'm scared, and then do it yeah and I think, bravery. When we see someone on a pedal store, you go well, that's out of reach for me because they're not. You know, I don't. I feel fear and this, you've got this thing. This person doesn't, because if you see someone that's courageous, who's going, I feel scared, but I'm doing it anyway yeah and I'm and you know, or I'm actually backing away because this is maybe too much.
Jonny:It gives the other people permission to realize they're normal and I think that's the thing is so much. I see it on the other side, like the other side of the police, the people we deal with. So much rage and anger and so many vicious assaults are done based on fear, because they can't manage their fear and they mask as anger and it's. And if you, I think if you've got fear-based rage or anger, you feel like you're backed into a corner. It's not a good mix really yeah, and I can.
Nicky:You said, you said earlier, we're, we're fortunate enough to have been taught now through our life coaching certification how to process our emotions, and I've covered this a couple of times already on the podcast so we won't necessarily go into the detail of it today. But I can remember when I was I went through my coach certification first and I can remember coming down to you and I can't exactly remember the emotion that you were feeling, but I can remember very clearly we were both sat in the, we were both stood against the kitchen sink, so the worktop in the kitchen, and and I can remember saying to you, well, you know, where in your body do you feel it? And you were like, well, what, what are you talking about? I don't feel it in my body. And then I was like, well, what color is it? What do you mean? What color is it? So what's the difference between then and now?
Jonny:I think I just know how A I've got a good relationship with it, so I think it's normal. So I don't fear the fear. I don't fear any of those emotions. There's ones I definitely move away from. But what I do now is if I'm doing stuff say like with my coaching business I noticed that actually speaking to people and telling them what I do was more scary than going out and fighting someone at work.
Jonny:It's crazy, but I use them now as an indicator. So, instead of going, oh, I'm feeling that again, just going, oh right, okay, I'm just not ready to experience that yet. I'm not at that stage where I can experience that and now I can break down into small steps and to build up to practice feeling that. Because what I find is people want to get rid of fear, People want to get rid of whatever emotion they avoid. But you just get better at feeling it and you don't have to do it in one big lump. You go oh, I'm just going to experience it, either with mental rehearsal or exposing yourself gently to similar situations, and then what I find is A you calm that part down and realize the situation isn't as dangerous as you think and you build massive trust in yourself and you have. But you need self-compassion, kindness, because there may be times you're going to back away, that you're going to reach this threshold and everyone's limit is based on what they're willing to fill. So if you go up to something, you go. Maybe it'd be a promotion for you, like you've built, you know, building a business, whatever it is. Maybe you want to date more and you can't go up and instigate a conversation. It's all that ceiling is because of a feeling that you've not been used to feeling and you're so actually when you go. Oh, there's just practice feeling that and then you notice when you back away and see how you get better at it. As soon as you're willing to feel it, you get experience the other side and there's normally a good feeling the other side. So I think for me now I know there's something good the other side and I can use this in my life with side and I can use this in my life with, interestingly like business, where there's no real threat, and the police, where I go out and there's a physical threat. But ironically, I think I deal with the fear better when there's a physical threat. And something I did.
Jonny:I think I would always ask and I noticed because I was always taught big is strong. Yeah, look at the size of him, look at, look. And my dad would go he's getting a big boy in, look at the size of his hands. And I wasn't really I wasn't. I'm not naturally big, I'm probably more like my mum's side. They were more sort of slight build, but I would always be like how big is he? That's all I cared. If someone's like we're going to wrestle on how big is he, yeah, and if anyone's talking about someone, even someone that I even admired, well, what's he like? Is he a big guy? And it'd be like they wouldn't even in context. But that is something I had to know because I thought I could almost rate them where they were, where I rated myself.
Jonny:Against that, if they were big or they're strong, yeah, and and I would always be like that, like I remember stopping someone in a discovery once and he was a bloody monster and I thought he could literally tear my head off. And whereas now I'd be a lot more because I'm accepting of that fear, I'd be like I deal with it. So differently I would. I'd still actually probably step forward more, but because I was going, I feel scared. I don't want to feel scared. Oh my god, he would pick up on it and all that. And you think it's just a resistance to the fear. But I find, as soon as I realized it's normal, that's the big thing, that relationship with it, it just um, it's just not a problem.
Jonny:And I think, no matter what you do, when I first started coaching, I was putting posts out and that was worse for me than being in Stokescroft riots. I was just like putting a post out that I knew people was going to work with they're going to read actually made me have palpitations like almost like not a panic attack, but it was bloody close. It's like real panic coming up. And when I met those people they would go. And what I found was for me, because I go, I was go a bit headlong into it. I did it at a time when I knew they would judge me, so I knew, rather than avoid it, I I'd go. I want to experience this.
Jonny:It was horrible to feel it to start with Cause I'd go oh, I'm going, I'm going to post it when I know I'm going to work with them. They then actually I had the judgment I feared, but I went oh, I can handle that. This is the embarrassment, is the humiliation and that's it. But what this is embarrassment is the humiliation and that's it. But what I also found was when I spoke to those people who were a bit like what's this crap? You're talking about feeling your feelings? When I said to them about it, they went oh, I don't really have feelings.
Jonny:And what I realized is, whether you admit it or not. You have a broad range of feelings. You are, if you stuff them down, male or female, by the way, male or female, yeah. And if you stuff them down, what you do is you then only experience probably one or two, which is like anger and rage and which limits your options and probably affects a lot of areas of your life, yeah, whereas when you open to them, all you go, you create more joy and happiness because you're willing to feel the sadness, yeah, so, and or the disappointment so for me, and I can feel it now like come up when I think of certain jobs I deal with, because that's what used to do me.
Jonny:I used to get really angry at the job with the police because I would deal. I work on child protection, I deal with a job and it would like really bother me, but what I do is grind and grind and go at it. It's on the attack to to get this, to get justice, but then, when things are out of my control and I couldn't, or workloads come in and you know you couldn't give these people the service you wanted, what I was actually feeling, which I didn't realize was sadness, but I would just be angry and I'd be like there's job and they go to blame it. Yeah, because, as you know, what I've learned is, as soon as we blame, it's because we're, there's an emotion there we don't want to fill, so we go to anger. But now, like I had a case recently investigated for three years, not because it was particularly taxing, just because of how the demands on police get a very dangerous offender ready to go to um crime prosecution service and make a decision on whether he's going to go to court, which he would have and the victim went. It's too long, I'm not doing it anymore.
Jonny:So suddenly you get all these feelings of um disappointment, shame, regret, guilt, mainly from thinking I've let this person down. But rather than going, oh, and I've been off on one before I my default was I'm going to go to wiltshire, go to another force, come home, rant to you. Now I can get that separation and go right. I'm not actually angry. I am feeling angry, but actually I'm feeling angry because I think it should be different, but I'm feeling angry because I don't want to feel this feeling. What is it? I feel really sad because I think I've let this person down. Yeah, not true, I've let them down because when I look at it and reflect on it. I've had lots of demands and we've been prioritizing other things and unfortunately that's just the reality of it.
Jonny:But then, instead of going, oh that's not my fault, that's my, my thought creating that, I can just dispel that.
Jonny:Then I sit with it and I sit and sometimes I cry and I go, and I used to have a lot of judgment over that.
Jonny:But when you realize that is how we express our feelings, it's like some people may not I know people have never cried but for me, even if it's not sad, sometimes you go oh, I needed that, but sometimes, whereas before you'd have a drink or eat it away or or joke it away in my sense, in my case which humor is brilliant, I think, in these sorts of jobs, but also it can, like anything, be overused. But now I just sit there and go oh, this is sadness, and it feels heavy and I describe it, but I'm not so visual, like that color, I. I struggle more with that, but I just let it be. I describe, I notice how it feels and then I let it process and go through, and then what I find is it's like now I'm back in the game. Yeah, because if you push it down, you stick it on the car credit card and you're gonna pay for it later. You're gonna. You're not avoiding it. Don't think you can stick sadness and all this vulnerability down and I'll just feel anger instead. At some point it's going to come up and when it does it'll go
Jonny:oof yeah, and often you'll go oh yeah, because when. Because when people talk about draining the bucket, you know the stress bucket and drain it off. I don't even believe you've got to drain it off, because what you do is you stop it filling up. You deal with it as you experience it so you don't end up with this thing of I gotta go out and have a run because my head's so full. You went for a run because it's nice and and I think that processing and being with it and and you accept life for what it is reality of life. Yeah, if I work on, if I got kids, I'm gonna get angry, I'm gonna get frustrated, I'm gonna be sad, disappointed, I'm gonna be nervous. If I'm in the police, I'm gonna experience all that and that is the game.
Nicky:Yeah, if I can't feel it, I'm gonna just go to one yeah, and I think I think listening to you talk when you're in a very typical sort of like that kind of fighting male kind of thing although you have worked with some amazing women that are brilliant at getting their hands stuck in and fighting If you were going out to a job you'd want them with you. Yeah, but from a society, from a societal perspective, we see the man as the fixer and the strong one and the one that's going to fight. Now, your job does include that. But if you're on a day-to-day like maybe your job doesn't include that, or like I'm just thinking of more day-to-day kind of things where you've got angry and frustrated at yourself because you haven't put a shelf up right, or you haven't known how to.
Nicky:I don't know because I remember when we first had our, when we ever first bought our first house many years ago, you would get so angry and frustrated. I'm like why do you think you should know to how to put a shelf up? Yeah, it was always like I'm a man, this is what I should know, but it's like so bring it, just give us. Have you got some like day-to-days examples? For those, for those men or the, you know the, the women that are listening, whose brothers partners yeah you know, friends so I think, as a man, first of all you want to be the fixer.
Jonny:Yeah, so, like day-to-day, just say, your wife or partner comes home and they've got a problem. You want to solve that problem. Like as in, every problem needs solving, which, of course, is more problems, but I know, for me a simple one would have been like skirting. I'd never done skirting before that's it.
Nicky:So when you say skirting you don't you make it. You mean the little skirting boards around the bottom.
Jonny:I'm not talking about upskirting. It's been weeks since I've done that. It's, it's, it's. I do something that I'd never done before. Yeah, which there's a and I could never. I could never like. Now I look back and go, this is something a tradesman does and they they're skilled at or hanging a door, but if I take the skirting, I would do it and I would think I was a perfectionist because I thought I should be able to do this, not because I've been taught, because I'm a man and I look at other men and go, they can do, I should be able to do so. I've got two. I've got two good examples, actually skirting's one, and soon as it went wrong, I'd be like fucking hell. I beat myself up and like you're stupid, you, you're useless, was mine, I'm useless, I'm useless, I should be able to do this just because man equals that, which is absolute crazy. And then I had to call anyone to come and help. Yeah, and I remember when, um, the boiler, where the boy was losing pressure, and I and I think you even said right at the start um, could it just be a leak on radio? No, no, no, it's just. You know, I'll, I'll sort this out, but I never. Actually, what I never did was I never did anything about it because I feared getting it wrong, because I should be able to sort this out. And if I don't sort it out then I'm not really doing the job of a man. And I'd see my dad, who I thought was really good at doy probably he wasn't really good at some stuff, but he was always very angry when he's doing it. But when it came to the boiler, I remember you saying, oh, the carpet's wet. And I and I was like, oh, and I remember the shame of having to ring rue, well, my mate and go, I should phone the mark, start. There's like a big thing of going oh god, I gotta phone him up and sort this problem out, and one of them but obviously I was coaching then, so I was watching all this stuff and then my mate said I couldn't go with the plumber. So I spoke to my mate and he went have you tried just tighten it up with the spanner? And I was like and that was this. 18 months I've been going on, if not longer, but I noticed straight away that I wanted to beat myself up because I should have known that.
Jonny:Yeah, and it's that narrative that you've got to address, yeah, and quieten, yeah, because you're not supposed to know it and we, and it's very much. I think generations may change this, but I was brought like the man should be able to do that, should be able to lay up. Oh, the patio was the other one. Yeah, later patio laid it bloody three times. I kept laying it wrong. Really, really good after, but I would like.
Jonny:I remember when I went down out and I found it hadn't stuck. I remember sitting with a sledgehammer going everything in me, and I remember seeing you and sal inside. I thought try and not laugh, and I just wanted. All I wanted to do was smash it up and I was like but, but I would, and that's the thing. Then I would do it, but instead of like getting someone into it, can you come and help me, um, show me how to lay a patio out? I would watch hours of youtube and then I'd go out and have another go, which some people might say is commendable. But what I would? What I do now, if I'm doing something and I decide I do actually want to do it, I would phone someone up and go. You tell me I do that yeah, yeah, so you'd ask so.
Nicky:So what I'm hearing actually is that willingness to ask for help.
Jonny:Yes, ask, ask for help. And what I realize is you can't do it on your own. Yeah, you can't do it on your own. And actually there's some things knowing your unique abilities, your natural strengths, and putting your time into that and not comparing, not even going. Yeah, but they're good at carpentry, I'm good at say talking to people, doesn't even need that, yeah, it's just like I just don't really want to do the carpentry and I'm not, and they're a lot better at it than me. I'll let them do it. Thank you very much.
Jonny:And what I find is you then use people's abilities and I think you create a stronger community, because I think, especially men, we often were quite in my experience, I was. I would isolate myself because I wanted to be the one to sort it out. So it's so. It would show up everywhere really and like and like. You say really when you look at it in ridiculous things. If you know, expect to be able to build stuff and I've never built. Yeah, whatever I did, I expected to know how to do it and do it right first time yeah.
Nicky:So if there was, so, if someone's listening to this and maybe their partner or their brother or some some like we all, even if you're, if you're not married, you will have men in your life. If that, what? What would you want women to know about men's emotions, on how to deal with it?
Jonny:like, yeah, I think if someone goes to anger, they're probably actually feeling really scared is the first thing, and it's not that you condone any behavior, but just knowing that actually what they are is they're probably in a very scared state and they're just masking with anger. Maybe don't point that out because, because they probably won't want to hear it. Um, and yeah, I mean what I I think I was, I was gonna say about getting them help. But unless the person wants to get help, there's an interesting question what to do? How do you live with someone who is, say, displaying those things?
Jonny:so maybe, maybe, if I because what I want to point out is like even when you were telling me, why would you expect to know that I would not listen to it? Yeah yeah, I know what I'd say is. I think what I'd say to anyone is that you're not really, they're not going to change until they decide to change, because you can tell them you're great, you know, we love you.
Nicky:That's all lovely things to say, but if that internal dialogue for that person is, I should be able to do this and I'm weak and they have to work on changing that yeah really and what I was kind of thinking more so around was like, I suppose because of the skills that we now have as a coach and as coaches and how we actually use that in our day-to-day with our communication with each other, is that when which we've had a number of times recently because building a business is quite an emotive topic it is hard, especially if money challenges are involved, and there have been times when I've just stood there and listened to you ranting about feeling scared and nervous and frightened and in my head I've been able to go and that's not a problem, so I'm able to give you the space in order for you to feel that emotion without thinking you should be different, for you to feel that emotion without thinking you should be different, because I think the only thing, what I think a lot of us do, regardless of gender, right, it's like, oh, you're feeling sad.
Jonny:Oh, let me help you change it.
Nicky:We don't want to be condescending, but equally we are like, whether you're dealing with a man or a woman, their emotion, they have have emotions and emotions don't have to be a problem. So when you're in a situation where you can listen to that person and hear their fears or just get curious, like so, if that you were saying about someone getting angry, that might not be the time to go. Oh well, you're probably feeling vulnerable, it's you know that but you could go, is everything all right right?
Jonny:I, yeah, and I think as well, what I'd say to someone is just say, like you've got a partner, like a husband or boyfriend, and they're responding that way and and they're not receptive to go like you could suggest these things, like maybe you're going to speak to a coach or something like that, but if they're not receptive, you go and get it. Yes, yes, yeah. Now you, I think you've got to be aware that something could happen there, that if you fundamentally changing this person, doesn't there could be a gap. But also, when you understand, and you don't need that person to change for you to feel better, yes, what you can do is you will understand it more and you don't have to try and change it. You can just give them the space.
Jonny:Yeah, but but also what I'd say then I can't say is for all men, but what I used to look for is a reaction, and this is interesting. Actually, what I and it's only really come aware of it now is I used to be, when I used to be angry. What I used to be looking for actually is pity, but then I didn't want to receive it.
Nicky:No, you've never lied.
Jonny:No, but interest but interestingly, yeah, what I do is I'd be angry and I want someone to say it's okay, but then I'd reject that, like that's what I and that's what I said when I was angry. That's what I really wanted. It's almost like it's not a child. That's what I really wanted was like a hug. Yeah, it's okay, plenty, I was fine, but I was angry. That's what I really wanted. It's almost like it's not a child. That's what I really wanted was like a hug. Yeah, it's okay, it's fine.
Jonny:But I was in such a state I couldn't almost accept it. So it's almost that, knowing that maybe you can't do anything right in that moment. Yeah, cause I remember saying to you you'd be sat there and if you'd say something, it would sort of I would use that and fuel it and I'd argue no, you don't understand that. So then you'd sit there quiet and I'd be like well, and it's almost like for you in that state there was nothing you could do right, but that's no reflection on you. That's the key thing. What they're going through is to do with them.
Jonny:And now I think it's very different, isn't it? It's very it's, it's massively different. But just knowing that actually, maybe in that moment there's nothing you can do, right, yeah and you don't. But don't take it personal yeah and yeah and it's. But I think it is a challenge for people if they've got a partner male partner who they can see is struggling and that person doesn't want to go for help, because your biggest problem because obviously I coach on burnout the biggest problem for burnout recovery is people don't want to ask for help yeah and it's the biggest thing for men, because they believe is weak, yeah, and that pains.
Nicky:It pains me so much because the men that I've coached and they come and they talk to me and they're willing to be vulnerable in our time together and they talk about how much they love their kids and and really it's just all about love, but because, because they've been conditioned that that's weak, they don't show it.
Jonny:So then they've got that internal dissonance and that lying that they're doing to themselves as well, because they're like oh I kept it, I keep it in, I don't show it and you sort of think that if you're loving and caring, that you're soft.
Jonny:Yeah, you're soft, and I know this generation is different yeah, but it's almost like this you've got to be hard, this hard exterior, and I remember, like hearing people talk about people and they described on oh, he's hard as nails. Yeah, it was all to do with how big and strong you were, but you still got the same stuff you're dealing with. Yeah, yeah, it's, and I I think I forgot what I was gonna say then because you were just what is it?
Nicky:you just said um, it's what was I saying? It's gone, I don't know, but what I? What I was gonna ask you oh, you were saying about being is being soft and yeah we would talk about love for our children yeah.
Jonny:So when you're showing those feelings like love and I know for ages it's really uncomfortable for me to talk. I would talk about loving my kids, yeah, but just talking about love as an emotion, I was like, oh, it makes me feel a bit squirmy. I don't know how it sits with me. But when you realize and I probably even feel a little bit now of discomfort, nothing like I used to when I used to coach about love and I used to talk about love I could feel the discomfort in me. But because it's almost like that, even that was a bit of a weakness maybe I don't know but it's. But when you realize it's all normal and actually if you love someone and if you love yourself, all your options are open, yeah, when you're angry, you've got one yeah.
Nicky:Yeah, it's not normally a good one and I was coaching someone today around his ex, his ex wife, who he had two two boys with actually, and and I approached the topic of unconditional love because he had a lot of hate towards this woman and a lot of resentment, and and I said, well, what would it be like to unconditionally love her? And he was like he. And I said, well, what would it be like to unconditionally love her? And he was like he really didn't think he would be able to get there. And I was like, but who do you think that feeling is for?
Nicky:Like, if you choose to unconditionally love someone, so unconditionally love is not romantic, sexy type of love. It's the choosing to love another human or another person. Yeah, and that might sometimes mean saying no and having a consequence, but because love feels good and actually when you choose love or unconditional love, it's for you, it is not for the other person. And when I said to him this isn't for her, she's never going to feel your emotions. She will see your behavior from your emotions, behavior from your emotions. She never sees your emotions. And and I think that's really key is to to really notice that actually, when we're choosing emotions, we are choosing it for us, because we're the only ones that feel it yeah, yeah, you did.
Jonny:I forget. I always thought it was gandhi that said it. But my and someone I heard that is like dalai lama was like it's like drinking. Having a grudge or anger or hate towards someone is literally drinking poison, hoping it kills the other person. Yeah, it's literally going. I hate it. But and and it's really just because you don't want to experience something yourself, yeah, but when you? But I think people think if they love someone, even though that someone's action might be not quite what they want, well I think the thing is if you can love the person but still not like what they do yes, yeah and I think and I think when we reject that and this is normal when we reject, it is because we don't want to experience the hurt.
Jonny:Yeah, say if you've like that person, if they've been hurt, actually when you don't want to feel hurt. So it all comes down to vulnerability. What you do is, well, I'll go to anger, I'll hate them because that feels like I'm. I think for me it's a control thing. People that I coach. When they go, well, I hate them. I feel real anger towards them and it's like they feel like they're in control which they're not, because they're giving the other person the control.
Jonny:Yeah, but almost like if you were vulnerable and going, actually, I feel really sad that this person's left me and taking my kids away and I can't see them all the time, and I feel this way. Then all options are open to you and you feel vulnerable and you feel sad. But it's the rejection of those feelings that create the anger, which create the hatred, which just and it is, and it is a challenge sometimes, especially when people close to you. But what I'd say is I'm not saying reject anger and you shouldn't be feeling it, but you've got to feel the anger yeah it's for me.
Jonny:And we had it recently, didn't we? When we've had um mortgage coming up and suddenly we were talking about the money that we owed? And we had it recently, didn't we? When we've had um mortgage coming up and suddenly we were talking about the money that we owed and credit cards and credit cards and I was like, from some of the money that's put on that I could feel this anger. But what I did is I realized I hated feeling the anger and it made me more angry yeah, yeah, so we get angry about feeling.
Nicky:Yeah, so it's not like you go angry.
Jonny:Oh, there's some scared emotion. This is how it works for me. I didn't go angry. Oh, there's some scared emotion. This is how it works for me. I didn't go. Oh, I'm angry. There's some scared emotion. I'll just sit here and feel that I had to sit with that anger. Yeah, notice it with fascination, how, even? Because this is all unconscious stuff, that's the thing and note it and just watch yourself, because what used to happen is, if you came in, I'd feel the anger and I think and I don't think you even would have realized this but as soon as I dropped the judgment of the anger, I could let it process through. Sometimes it's a minute, sometimes it's not constantly there, but sometimes it's a few days, sometimes it might be weeks. If you separate it with someone, it might be months, but noticing when you hear their voice, when you do that, don't go. Oh, yeah, I'm just going to feel the sadness instead. Let the anger be there, notice, but don't respond to it. That's the key. It's the response that feeds it. It's like feeding the bloody monster.
Nicky:Yeah, it's like a vicious cycle.
Jonny:And I noticed that and I had no judgment over it. I was just like this is my nervous system, this is how I viewed it anger, my nervous system seeing you as a threat. I had no control over that. It's like being out with a mate who's a bit feisty and he's going, he's having a go at me, he's having a go at me and they're not, and you're like you can't stop the mate doing that, but what you can do is go, it's okay. It's okay you don't have to respond and that's what's going on.
Jonny:But we respond to that and we judge it, because a lot of time we don't want to feel angry, especially towards the people we love. Yeah, when you just go, yeah, I'm experiencing anger and my automatic system, my nervous system, is just getting me ready but then going. But we don't need to be ready. Yeah, and ironically, within a day or two, that had all gone and we dealt with it very well, didn't we? Yeah, and actually I was able then to be what I really wanted to be was supportive for you, whereas I know, when I'm in anger or I say the supportive words, but in this tone, I'm saying all the right words, but it sounds a bit loud and noisy, but so that's what I'd say is and it's and that's a lot for me to sort of say on there, because obviously that's very personal to us.
Jonny:But knowing that when and I think that was the biggest thing for me sitting there and noticing myself tensing up, but of course it's that that causes a divide. If you're not onto that, if you're not aware of that and I actually think that that is you creating this response yeah, then suddenly I need you to change. Yeah, when I go, no, this is just my body's automatic response because it's sensing a threat. That's how I keep it, as simple as that. And it's going. Here we go, we're ready, and then I go, feel it, feel it, allow it, notice it, relax everything, process it through, and then what I did was I. Then, after I did that, then the fearful stuff come up. I realize it's nothing to do with you, it's my fear around money. Yeah, oh, lovely, I can now just deal with that.
Nicky:Yeah, yeah. So we spoke a little bit earlier about sort of love for our children that I think we, most of us, innately have, and I just want to end up by just um and our conversation today, just talking a little bit around, because a lot of people say to their boys, don't they? Oh, man up, you know, don't be such a baby, come on, man up, and what I mean. What's your view of that and what would you really want your boys to know when they become adults?
Jonny:I think often it's a dad's first thing, because I know dads that maybe don't spend time with their boys so much and they think their boy's a bit soft I've heard this the other day and so on goes I just need toughening up. I think it's a bit of an excuse for just not spending time with them. If they're tougher it'd be all right, but I think they haven't got to be that way. You know, like, as you know, like our as well, obviously know, because he's yours as well Our eldest isn't an aggressive hands-on neither of them are. But to force them to like so, for instance, I was told like I had a problem at school smack him in the mouth, and it wasn't in my nature. So now you're like I don't want to do that. But and I just say, just let them be who they are and let them express their emotions, no, let them struggle.
Jonny:That it's almost like if you want to read a great book, read pursuit of perfection, because they're just addressing it. Now in the book I'm reading and it's saying like if you do too much for them and you don't want them to feel these emotions, if you go, I don't want my, because if you don't want to feel it. You're not going to want your kids to feel it. If you don't want them to experience failure, embarrassment, than that you're going to keep jumping in and um solving problems for them. Yeah, they're not going to be capable. So it's about helping them to learn to fill their emotions and realizing that whatever they feel doesn't mean they're weak. It actually is going to be their greatest strength and that's what I would teach them and actually teach them not to not be angry, because I think if we tell people don't be angry and they're going yeah, it's a perfectly normal human emotion.
Nicky:Yeah, all of them are.
Jonny:You're going to experience it. Let's just, let's just allow that and talk to them about the fears. And I think if you do your work as a dad for me, regardless of all the business building that my biggest thing is it always keeps me going with this work, is the example I am to my boys. Yeah, because you know we're never the finished article, but if my boys can see me being vulnerable and actually going I'm actually scared, then their, that generation will grow up knowing that scared is okay, yeah, anxious is okay, it's. You know it's not something to hide from. Yeah, and I would just have that compassion. Don't think they've got to toughen up. Don't think they've got to man up. Just let them be who they are and express themselves and understand that as they turn into teenage years. They ain't going to control that shit.
Nicky:Well, they don't do it. They can't at any point because their prefrontal cortex isn't developed, is it? But I have actually covered that in another podcast as well. So go check that out if you want to. But I think I think what it really comes down to isn't it is let people have their emotions. If you're okay with your emotions, like if you feel anxious and you're okay with anxiety, then it's not going to be a problem for your children to feel anxious, because you realize that's normal and you said this a number of times it's normal.
Nicky:It is so normal to have the whole range of emotions and we don't need to fear them. We actually don't need to fear our emotions. They are completely normal and it really does start with us. Our children aren't going to change unless we change first. So we have to be comfortable and this is my opinion. It starts with us. It starts with, starts with us. It starts with me as a mom. It starts with you as a dad, and even if you don't have like children, if you don't have children of your own, you will know children in your society Doesn't have them. Emotions don't have to be a problem. It's so much more powerful to experience them and let them flow through you and be okay with them. That's such a stronger way to deal with emotions and to push them down, avoid them, but also get angry about angry, but you're not going to be able to do this and I really strongly believe this.
Jonny:So many people come and go.
Jonny:Can you, um, speak to my kid um, because they're anxious and it's causing a nightmare for the whole family yeah people and I believe if you can't, if you're not okay with your emotions, yeah, then actually you're not going to be able to create an environment where it's safe for your children to feel it. You're going to be giving them sweets when they're sad. You're not going to show them how to feel it, and that's no judgment of you, because why would you know? We, I only know it. I learned this at 40 years old.
Jonny:For god's sake yeah, you know it's. We're not taught this and we should be taught this. Yeah, but I think, if you think you see your kids struggling, go and get coached yourself. Yeah, because what you'll do is you'll suddenly be like because kids don't do as they say, they do as they see and they and suddenly but when that's what I notice with our boys is you. It's not like we preach this stuff to them all the time. They just see us say dealing with a problem.
Nicky:Yeah they see us feeling nervous. They see us crying if we're experiencing grief they see us, you know yeah and it's.
Jonny:And let them see that the amount of people that go, I'm being strong for my kids. So say I. I know we've got to stop in a minute, but when someone was saying I was speaking something about bereavement and they were feeling really sad. It was like their dad or someone, but they went. I'm being strong for the kids.
Nicky:What does that look like?
Jonny:We're not crying. Okay, now the kids think well, crying's weak. I can't cry because that's yeah Crying's weak. Dad didn't cry when his dad died. You go. When they see you crying and they see, and when you just go I feel useless.
Nicky:And that's okay. It's okay that I feel sad. Nothing's gone wrong.
Jonny:But I say this but even as a man I know I would have to really consciously do that because I know when I feel like that I still want to hide.
Nicky:Yeah.
Jonny:So this isn't just suddenly I sit there and I go oh, come round, this is dad being sad. That's all I get on a live video and show everyone. Even that I would want. It's very natural to want to hide away, but actually showing them.
Jonny:All you gotta do is show them it's okay to feel that and also show them that it's actually quite challenging to feel that yeah, and they realize all that is normal, that's the thing, and you just normalize it all and then they can grow up healthy, balanced, being able to feel all their emotions, and then they know that when they want to go for a promotion oh, I'm feeling imposter syndrome yeah, it's not an issue it's just self-doubt it's lovely, or when they're about to go and get the washing up job and they're feeling nervous, or they want to go.
Nicky:You know, nervousness is they, they are. Our children are going to do things for the first time and our brain doesn't like that. So and that is all normal. But if they know that that's normal, then they don't need to.
Jonny:It doesn't need to hold them back a bit like blue when he's doing empty dishwasher earlier and he goes I'm really bored before I'd gone. I've got to make this fun, or you show him that boredom's okay, yeah, and he can do it bored like. For me, where I've gone is I would have gone before. I need to fix that, yeah, but now I go, there's literally nothing to fix. Yeah, yeah, is that I can just go? Yeah, you do feel bored and you know. Yeah, congratulations, welcome to the human world. I don't think he wants to hear that, but because you're showing them there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, you know, I used to be a bit like well, I still get those sometimes now. Like well, there's kids out there that let's go and call the kids in africa and have a, you know, a collection for you. But you realize that's not very helpful. But you just realize just normalize it and have no judgment of it is the key.
Nicky:Yeah, yeah yeah, and so if you've listened to this, hopefully it's really helped you. But if you've listened to this, hopefully it's really helped you. But if you have listened to this and thought, oh OK, I'm actually not dealing with my emotions as effectively as I could be, then come and talk to either one of us. I'll put Johnny's details in the show notes. I mean, how? How is the best way for people to get in touch with if they need to?
Jonny:um, so well, I'm on linkedin, but really it's um, I'm on instagram I'll put it all in the thing, johnny, but at johnny bevan, and I'm on facebook at johnny bevan, coaching, and linkedin is just johnny bevan. Um, yeah, but any of those ways, really. And if but you're not on social media and you want to email, it's just johnny bevan, j-o-double-m-y-b-e-v-a-n. Outlookcom. Yeah, yeah. And the easiest thing to do is, I think, is if you think like you know, because you won't know whether you want coaching or whatever, just have a conversation. Just, yeah, you know. Just have a conversation and see where that leads.
Nicky:That's what I say and because, and, johnny, you will be back on the podcast because we've got loads of things to talk about, haven't we? But, um, we, we are both trained in exactly the same coaching method, but we have naturally very different energy and ways about it.
Nicky:So either of us are right or wrong, but you will resonate yeah with one of us and even if you don't resonate with us, don't discount coaching. It might be that you need, you know, to find another coach. It might be that you need solution, focus, hypnotherapy. It might be that you even need counseling to begin with. But but take that step forward to helping yourself.
Jonny:Well, I think just find try something, because normally all these things are free to start with, like you're going to try because you'll know which one you need. I suppose you saw on the other day and he wasn't considering coaching with anyone because he'd counseling you're like it's world, I've no different worlds, it's worlds apart. Yeah, it's not a replacement for it. Not one is better than the other. Counseling therapy got his place. But actually if you're dealing with these day-to-day issues, you know overwhelm and all this sort of stuff and factionism. That's where coaching helps. Yeah, it's. You know, if you're struggling seeing your kids dealing with stuff and going through their exams no matter parents, I see you're in a worse state than their kids when they're going through the exams that's where coaching can help you.
Nicky:Yeah, you kind of balance everything yeah, and I think what I will just finish off by saying that is, especially with the people that you love the most, it can be really fucking uncomfortable to show your vulnerabilities yeah, as as a woman, as well as I know for you as as a man. But what I will say is that when, when you are willing to be vulnerable, especially with the people you love the most, that gives them willing to be vulnerable, especially with the people you love the most, that gives them permission to be vulnerable, because you both realize it's safe and that's what creates such an amazing connection, I think, whereas when you're trying to avoid it or get angry, that's what creates a disconnection.
Jonny:Yeah, disconnection, yeah, and I think the fixer mentality and ironically, I think, since I've been coached and all that, and I don't feel like I need to solve everything, I think stuff seems to get sorted out easier. Yeah, and what I'd say about coaching, so someone knows what experience. I got coached today and when you get coached, I think when, well, even at the start, but especially when you get into it, it's really just a space for you to find, to unlock the wisdom that's in you. That's how I even describe coaching. I got coached today and the coach did not tell me anything. They just prompted me with about three different questions, but I was off and I've seen it and it totally changed my entire day.
Jonny:Yeah, and even though that coach, in effect, didn't really seem to do a lot, they got me somewhere in 45 minutes where I've been trying to get for weeks yeah and and they didn't get me there, they just gave held the space so I could go, process all this stuff and I could suddenly see what was happening and then I obviously I know how how to do that, anyway, but then the coach can guide you and show you the skills of how to change that. But they'll help you change it. You change it, not the coach.
Nicky:Yes, yeah, yeah, and that's the beauty of it, yeah yeah, so if you're ready for that people, we're ready for you. Um, thank you so much for coming on, johnny. What?
Jonny:should we talk?
Nicky:about next? What should our next topic be? I think it probably needs to be our coaching journey and the, the peas and the pubes in the bathtub yes and the freezer in our corner of our bedroom yeah, so yeah so if, if you want to hear about that story, look out for our next little, uh, next little interview with johnny.
Nicky:Thank you so much. I kind of I kind of had to force you down to do this. I was like, come on, we're doing it now. Love you so much, thank you very much. Love you lots. Bye, see you. See you in a minute downstairs.