Okay, welcome back to the heal with grace podcast. I am here with 2 very special guests. I am here with Liana, who, if you have not heard her episode yet, go back and listen. And I'll link that below as well. She is 1 of our support therapists, in our mind, body healing method, and it's a wonderful mind, body therapist, and our private practice.
My. elevate therapy and wellness. And we also have Amy Sanders, who is a licensed massage therapist and craniosacral therapist, and also works with the nervous system in polyvagal theory. So wealth of knowledge, and we're happy to have her. And I'm actually just going to stop here and let her introduce herself.
Hello, Amy and Liana. Welcome. Hello to both of you. Thanks for having me.yeah, so I have a, I have a degree in occupational therapy. I started out my career, almost 30 years ago, or actually 30 years ago. And, I also have my, as you mentioned degree and, massage therapy and, certification and cranial psychotherapy and.
I started my career in outpatient and inpatient working with patients in rehab and started applying some of these principles of manual therapy with my clients. And what I noted is they all started to get better quicker. So, I, Decided to specialize in just manual therapy, which is cranial sacral work.
So, why don't you tell us what is craniosacral therapy for the people listening that don't know? Yes. Okay. So craniosacral therapy is an educated, specific, hands on type of therapy. So, it works with what we call the craniosacral system, which is an enclosed system that runs From the cranium to the sacrum, it involves the spinal cord and the brain and the meningeal system and cerebrospinal fluid.
So, though it's housed, and we use the cerebrospinal fluids, natural physiological flow as it's being produced and reabsorbed as an indicator. Where there is a need for input, or where there is some dysfunction in the body system.it was developed by a doctor of osteopathy, Dr. John up ledger, who was also a professor at, Michigan State, and he, found links with. The body mind and develop this in the, in the 70s and did a lot of research on these specific techniques. So this has been around for a bit.the cranial sacral system, because it's. Tied to our central nervous because it is our central nervous system, right is tied and related to and influences all other systems in the body.
So, our lymphatic system, our musculoskeletal system, our endocrine system, they're all interrelated based upon the central nervous system. Yes, that's what I was going to get at that when you were describing craniosacral, you were pretty much describing the nervous system, at least how I explain it to people where it's, you know, the connection between your brain and your body.
I call it the information highway information system. So, yeah, it all runs together, which makes sense how that would impact the nervous system. The craniosacral the fluid, if you will. Yeah, right. Right. Okay. And we, the amazing thing about the. Cerebral spinal fluid and the flow is when we feel for places in the body where the symmetry of the flow or the quality or the amplitude or the rhythm isn't.
Where it should be, maybe the amplitude is delayed, or maybe the symmetry of 1 side of the body versus the other isn't. Even those are clues that we should start. In that place in the body, or attend to that place in the body. So, for example, when the. Subtle spinal fluid is being produced, the head actually widens and the arms and legs externally rotate and as it's being reabsorbed, the head narrows and arms and legs internally rotate.
So we can feel that rhythm and or. An imbalance or difficulty in the system anywhere. Wow. Okay. So then how would this present in, Someone coming to you for certain issues, like, why would someone be seeking out craniosacral therapy? And I'll have you answer. And then I'm also going to have Liana answer as well, because she, I don't think I mentioned this in the beginning, but the reason she's on is because she works with Amy and has had amazing results.
And so we're going to share a little bit of her story too. So, yeah, why do people come to you for craniosacral? Yeah, so. Various reasons, it could be a reason of pain. It could be a reason of a need for just general body wellness. It could be trauma. It could be a desire to connect in with the higher self, which we call in the cranial world or interphysician.
So, it depends on the need of the person.So if that, you know, I, I can understand, especially if we're talking about how craniosacral system is very tight to the nervous system, it impacts so much. So it's not like there's just 1 thing. Someone's going to come to see you for right?
There's pain. There's trauma. It's physical, mental and emotional that it all affects. So, yes, it could be so many different things. I could see that for sure. so, yeah, Leanna, what made you 1st start seeing Amy? Yeah, well, as I talked about, in our previous podcast, I had significant, I have significant degeneration in both of my jaw joint.
And it's led to a lot of different things, one of which is an open bite. So I only have two of my teeth that make contact and obviously causes different issues. But when this first happened, I, you know, in the beginning, I was just in, I mean, honestly, like debilitating pain. And I had moved to, like, pretty much just like.
a soft food liquid diet and, I was told that the only way to get rid of the pain and get my teeth to come back together was to have a really invasive, potentially life altering surgery. And I've just always preferred to take a holistic path when it comes to healing. And so I started researching alternative ways of addressing this.
And there were two things that popped up. both in talking to people and researching and one of that was brain oocyte therapy that, Could potentially bring my bite back together. So that was my original goal in going to go see her. And while it hasn't come back together, the pain, which was like truly unbearable.
And I've said this to Amy so many times that when I first started working with her, like I honestly felt like I was becoming disabled. And now after working with her, what has it been like nine, 10 months, probably?The pain is like often not there at all and when it is like it's very manageable and like I have occasional flare ups, but for the most part.
I'm able to talk easier easier and have, like, really minimal discomfort and. You know, that's, that's great. You know, it's not the goal that I like originally came in with, but my goals have kind of shifted along the way of, you know, being able to kind of manage the pain and have functionality. And so, I have that.
That's pretty huge going from high, high pain to, pretty minimal, right? So then what created, what, how did that work? How did that, how does she make so much progress? and maybe it's something that is more felt, right? I don't know how much you can describe, but. Amy, what can you see from the practitioner standpoint helped her along the way? Right? Right. So. Often, and for for most people, right? It is. A multiple were layered individuals, right? And we have multiple contributing factors to. Dysfunction or limitation in in all of us, right? for. And Leon, are you okay to for me to talk about you?
Oh, yeah, that's fine. Okay. for her situation. There was a history, right? We have to look at what is the history. So there was a motor vehicle accident with a rollover. there, which affected definitely, it seems to have affected the upper cervicals and some of the facial structures, right? There was some.
Childhood experiences that she'll probably touch on that. Maybe have a somatic component in the system. also, obviously, any. Childhood stuff is going to impact the. Nervous system and the dysregulation regulation component, there and also there is definite structural and musculoskeletal imbalances within her system.
So, the beauty of cranial sacral is. We address it all we address the structural piece. We address the mind body spirit. We address the, central nervous anything. That pops up, we want to attend to with without an agenda. Of course, we know we have an agenda for techniques and purpose of techniques, but, we really do follow the body's innate wisdom and what comes forward as far as a need.
So, for her for change in pain. there was some intro oral structures that were pretty. Restricted, specifically with Liana, it's more so on her right side. That has more restriction or tightness because the jaw is obviously. You know, 1 bone on the, on the bottom, the, sometimes 1 sided pull will make symptoms on the other side.
There was also, we have, we all have a floating bone underneath our chin called the highlight and 10, 10 muscles attached to that. So a lot of structures can pull things. Imbalanced, and also her, her upper cervicals. Specifically on the left to have and or temporal bones have a lot of imbalance or structural.
So, what we do each time we visit is we nudge. This just symptoms we nudge with the soft tissue we work with the instructors. And then anything that's helped thematically. As well, so you've talked about this idea of self healing mechanisms through this work and I don't know if that's necessarily just craniosacral or kind of a combination of things of what you do, but, I know Leon has, talked about this as well.
Is there something that happens within us that. You help facilitate essentially, is that right? You're helping facilitate a self healing practice, which is a really, which is what I talk about all the time. Like so much of this work is learned and you need help and support, but bodies are amazing and they can heal.
They can work on self healing. Right? So how do you see that? How does that work? How does self healing work? Yeah, that's a good question. So It is my belief and cranial sacral therapy. We are learn about what we call is our inner physician. It's really our highest, wisest all knowing. Self, right? We want to access that part of us.
Because that is the innate part of us that knows what is needed for healing the way we can access it in many ways. So, when a client is on the treatment table, they are very much tuned into their body. Right? So, things that may come forward that aren't. In conscious awareness, right? They come from our non conscious would be emotions, memories, sensations, maybe colors, maybe shapes from the body.
An easy way into the system is actually through what we call therapeutic imagery and dialogue. It's the use of. Connecting with the body and an image that is held there to come to conscious awareness. So we can have a dialogue around. What comes forward, so maybe an example would be helpful. so I'll just give an example.
So, say I was releasing occipital cranial base, which is right at the base of your neck. And all of a sudden you kept getting an image of okay, I keep seeing this. Tree in front of me, and on the trunk of the tree, there's a branch snapped off and I feel that all the way down my left arm and for some reason, the leaves have fallen off half of the side of the tree and not on the other half and.
But I can't get to the tree because there's a cement wall in front of it. Now, that's a very elaborate image. Right? But, but that is actually. Are non conscious trying to help us. Understand something that is needed to come forward for our awareness for our healing. So, when you're doing this work, part of it is helping the unconscious come to the conscious mind, maybe.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be imagery often. People just feel an emotion and have and want to cry or feel angry or whatever, or. They could have a memory of an incident, which was really painful for them, or they had an injury and there was no 1 there to pick them up or whatever it is. So it doesn't have to be an image and we don't.
Again, there isn't an agenda around that. It's just kind of organic. Yeah, which is, I think that's a really important point to talk about is, yeah, so much of healing, especially self healing is being able to bring up the emotions of thoughts, the, the feelings around what has happened in our past or what is going on presently that our conscious mind is either pushing down or away or just not really aware of because that's what gets stuck in the body and creates pain symptoms dysregulation, if you will.
Right. So there's so many ways to do that. And that's part of this therapy is to be able to help the body soothe, whatever might be stuck, right. Or like bring up to the surface, what's needed to bring out. Is that right? Am I getting that? Yeah, that's correct. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. So then Liana, what's your experience being the client of Amy's and through this, you know, what, what do you conceptualize has been the reason that's helped you if you can, in so many words, or maybe an example.
Oh, that's so hard because there's been, there's like Amy said, there's so many layers to the work. I mean, Amy is, like, very good at putting puzzle pieces together. I mean, she's a big, big part of it. I think, you know, I think one, like, having somebody who understands something like, so, like, this is a really complicated situation that I'm dealing with, and she gets it.
she also really believes in the body's ability to heal itself, which I think is,
Like, I think it's really important if you're choosing, like, a holistic path to find practitioners and doctors who, like, do believe in that and are, pushing things that don't align with you. so I, I think there's, like, an element of trust and safety that comes in, like, being able to, like, let somebody work on such a, on an area that, like, is such a vulnerable place.
Because, like, For I don't know how long, like, definitely for at least, like, the 1st, like, 4 to 8 weeks or something. I'm seeing Amy. Like, I was very protective. Of that area, and that's really changed because I feel really safe with her. Right, so I think, like, that's really important. And then, because, like, if you feel safe, then, like, you're able to access more of your healing.
Within yourself so after a few months of working together, I've for the most part been seeing her, you know, weekly since we started together and I definitely like had a huge reduction in pain. I'm and something else that I was surprised to find is like, also just kind of like a lowering of my nervous system of like, just dysregulation.
I mean, Amy kind of alluded to this, but like, my background, like, I was very dysregulated and I thought that I had, like, really brought it down and I didn't recognize that it was still quite up. And, but. Noticing it as it lowered and I became more regulated. the absence of the tenseness was like very noticeable.
I'm just kind of like in my energy and body. but it's still there. Like, I think I even brought that up to her the last time that I saw you, Amy. but that was like a very big shift that I noticed as well. and then another one that's been really interesting to me is. Like, the last few months of I've had like, different memories that I had, like, completely forgotten about and just like, randomly come up.
I think 1 in a session with her and then the rest just look at random times. And I personally feel like that's because we've created more regulation in my system and also. Amy, like, during session, like, encourages you to tap into your inner physician and to connect to places that, we've shut down or shut off for whatever reason.
And I think in doing that and letting our brain and body know that it's safe to go there and we don't have to, like, protect and hide that these things have come up, and, you know, and I think our bodies are just so brilliant because. You know, at the time I couldn't have handled them coming up and now I'm like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even, I had completely forgotten about that.
but now it's like safe for me to look at it. So it's created, well, essentially exactly what you just said, safety, more safety in your body, more safety in your nervous system so that you can go there, which is exactly nervous system work is in so many different ways, creating more safety in the body and the ability.
To be with some difficult emotions, feelings, experiences, whatever they, they are, so that we can integrate and move through them. Yeah. So then Amy, what made you realize you need to start working with the nervous system? And I asked that recognizing that we've kind of already talked about it. so maybe it's just an overall, overall recognition, but I know that you work with the safe sound protocol. And so how did that come into play? And also, can you explain that for our listeners to what that is?
Sure, sure. Yeah, so. All day, as we all know, right, we are climbing up and down that. Polyvagal ladder to use if we use that theory, right? And we're always seeking a regulated state, and we like and prefer to be there. Right. So, from a technique standpoint, there is. Specific ways that we can support. The Vegas and help.
Kind of bring our bodies back to that regular state, but also if we're tapping into. Anything held right. That needs to come forward often to the nervous system will regulate. Based upon bringing that forward into our awareness and almost meeting it. So,the question that you're asking is, is how or what what got me interested in the nervous system?
and I think it's just because it's the core of the work, but also.
Often I find myself. And others, and we're all we're all needing and seeking regulation to support 1 another in this world really. and when I have a session myself. Or when I'm giving a session, I kind of, it's almost like, you're able to come back home. You're able to be with yourself. All that extra noise that we the monkey mind plays kind of goes quieter so we can have clarity and greater resilience.
Yes. I love that. You just said that last part, especially the quieting down and coming back home in a way to yourself. Is pretty much the core really of this work, right? Of working with the nervous system, working with your mind body connection. that's oftentimes what we're working through with people in our program and in therapy.
So, when they come in with all these dysregulations or symptoms, if you will, of the body, whether that is pain or fatigue or any kind of symptoms, really high anxiety. It's our body's way of saying, like, I don't know how to be with be at home with ourself. And so. So much of shutting out those symptoms or noise, I don't know, shutting out is right.
They're really the right word for that, but really decreasing them is being able to be with ourselves. And so, yeah, I can definitely see how being on the table, being with that type of home regulated, safe energy is going to create more of that experience. Yeah. Okay, and then regarding your question on the safe and sound.
Yes. That is another, it's, it's use of mid frequency modulated sound. So, high sounds send QR nervous system for alarm, low sounds QR nervous system for danger. So, what they've done is modulated the music at only mid frequency, to Use through the auditory processing centers. Thus, through the system to regulate the system, but it's not a hands on approach.
It is just an auditory listening program that people do for 30 minutes a day for. 10 days, and then there's follow up. Music that's not as modulated that is can be brought on at any point. It's. Very helpful for if input through touch through craniosacral or hands on techniques is too much for the system.
It's a nice way to just start to regulate or it's nice to add it on for a home. It's a really beautiful home program, especially for kids. Ah, okay. Okay. So maybe people too with high sensitivities to either sound or stimuli, things like that. We work with a lot of people with POTS who have a hard time being in even just everyday normal environment because their senses are heightened.
Is that correct? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So it's giving input, but it's really very gentle and it's.
It's just ease and they have, like, a classical soundtrack, which is very calming and regulating often. I well, not often. It is important that an activity is done. Maybe coloring, maybe using your hands to knit, maybe doing art during. The process, or whatever is coming for the nervous system, if bouncing on a Swiss ball is coming through your vestibular system, then that's good.
If if moving your arms and legs is good. So, we titrate the movement or activity around. What really links in with a regulation technique for your own system. Interesting. Okay. Okay. So they come to you have maybe an initial session and they do this at home often. Yeah, well, I always do the 1st session in the office.
So I can be a co regulator because that's important. For all of us as mammals to have a co regulator, and it's lovely at home. If someone can have a co regulator, but it's difficult for people to come to the office. Every day for 30 minutes, 10 for 10 days in a row. So usually I just, I give them access to the, if, if it's appropriate.
Or mom or dad is a co regulator at home. Or friend or whoever. Okay. Okay. So then, are there certain people that you see this work more for that you would suggest the safe and sound protocol for. The safe and sound, it would be like, if someone wanted to do more work at home. Or more regulation techniques and wanted another resource.
Or if someone's system really is at a place where direct tactile input through cranial sacral or other modalities feel a little overwhelming for their system. Okay, that's good to know. Yeah. Liana, did you happen to do this at all? Have you worked with it? No, I haven't. No, I'm just curious. I've, I've seen it and read about it in other places and I've just been curious about, you know, the effectiveness of it and who it's appropriate for.
So that's interesting. So, what else about this work that maybe I haven't touched on, or even know, you know, a question to ask that you feel like is important for people to understand when it comes to regulating chronic symptoms.yeah,
The beauty of. Cranial psychotherapy from the manual perspective from the techniques perspective is that there as I have shared with Liana in the past, there is a. An intention or a method to why I'm doing what I'm doing. So, for example, with Liana. There is. A structure right here, right? That is a, it's called your sphenoid bone and it articulates with the bone in the back of your head and they have a little synchondrosis within the skull.
It's a really important structure because this bone here touches all the other cranium bones. The sphenoid does. It also has an effect on the upper jaw, the maxilla. So. In her case, specifically, the spinoid has to be in alignment with the and the maxilla, and there's several structures that are touching from an standpoint or a bone standpoint and a connective tissue standpoint.
so it's almost like we need to work with things as they come forward. Right so, for example, with Liana, like, she touched on the 1st. 6, 8 weeks, , her nervous system that she was tracking and I, and I was. Cueing her to track every time I got anywhere close to the left side of her face, her nervous, her heart rate increased her nervous system just showed her.
This is too much for me right now. So we worked in other places. To help facilitate change to eventually decrease the pain and an improved balance. Right? Until her nervous system was regulated enough and her pain went down enough. To be able to give input, give support rebalance. Specifically where she has more changes within her joint.
but that needs to be specific and titrated and. Very, kind of method method to the madness, I guess. Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense. especially when we're talking about regulating the nervous system, it takes a practice. It takes time to be able to initially even make contact, whether that's support of you support of other tools that people are using to initially say, hey, these are okay to take almost like.
Your nervous system take their foot off the gas pedal, if you will, to be able to think, okay, now, actually, I'm gradually feeling a little bit safer. So let's increase maybe the, the intervention that we're doing, or increase the ability to shift some of that pain in terms of premium safe role to shift some of that fluid.
Right? So, working with the nervous system, I say this a lot. It really is a practice. It takes time because you're establishing safety with your body, with your internal state. And that, yeah, it takes time and practice when this, you know, the 1st. Like you're saying 6 to 8 weeks. Did you notice that's what was going on?
Were you intentionally recognizing like, okay, I'm working on safety so that we can increase or would you go in just for a session and kind of come out? And it's just what you did. Like, what was your awareness of what was going on? Well, like Amy said, like, she encourages, like, throughout, like, to notice Like how is your nervous system responding to things, especially in a situation like this, where like there is such a significant structural issue.
and so I very much like felt like alarm bells when she would be in that area. and I think, you know, our bodies like create. Create that like in an attempt to protect and whether it's like, you know, structure, emotional, whatever. And, and so, yeah, I think it's just like important to, like, move slowly and listen to yourself of, you know.
you know, try something like that, like, you know, with Amy, like, we didn't go there for quite some time, because it was, like, also letting my system and body and brain, like, know that Amy is safe and I can trust her to, like, work with this area of my body that's become very protected and that, like, I had developed, honestly, like, terror around, like, And, so, yeah, it took me a while to come down from that, but, like, I think it's really important to listen to that and I'm, like, grateful to, like, I'm so grateful to have found you, but like, it's so important to like, find somebody who encourages you to trust that inner voice because it's there for a reason.
And it doesn't necessarily mean that it is like, actually keeping you quote unquote safe, but for right now it is. And until it comes down enough to like, You chin a little bit. if you try to, like, push past that, that is more dysregulating. Right? And so it's so important. You know, just in general, it's like, talk about the nervous system to just like, move really slow and listen to that.
And when you're working with somebody, find somebody who honors that. I think that's so yes. Thank you for saying that. So important. No matter who you're working with, definitely needs to. To have that safe place, I know I have plenty of times I've gone too fast into something for myself, and it's just thrown me out and made me way more dysregulated, right?
Because I'm like, oh, let's jump in. Let's do it all. And it doesn't work that way. So, yeah, definitely. Okay. Yeah. Thank you both for explaining that. It's helpful.
Amy, where do you practice? I didn't actually ask this in the beginning and how can people find you to work with you?
Sure. I work out the it's called the be well center and it's in central Austin. And then I have my website is. It's simple, it's just amysanderstherapy. com. And then the technique of craniosacral is their direct website is upledger. com. That was Dr. Upledger who created it. So there's also resources on there.
and you can also do a search for a therapist on the site as well.so there's a lot of, a lot of us that have training in these techniques. Wonderful. And those will all be linked in the show notes.and I like to ask this on everyone that comes on the podcast. what are you loving right now in your life and your, what I call wellness journey.
And it could be anything from a new book to a new therapy to anything. That's a good question I'm just really enjoying this stage and we have 2 young daughters who have graduated and we are. Officially empty nesters, and we're just enjoying this. Time in our lives where we can maybe travel a little bit and spend time with our family and.
have some space to just explore and enjoy. Nice, wonderful. Okay. Well, thank you both for coming on. I think that was really helpful and impactful to have, you know, Amy explain everything and then we want to share your part of your story in it. So thank you both. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for having us.
All right. We'll talk to you all soon.
