Bare Marriage
Bare Marriage
Episode 249: Rebecoming: Figuring Out Why You’re Stuck feat. Dr. Merry Lin
It’s a complete therapy session—in one book and one podcast! Dr. Merry Lin joins us to explain why we so often feel stuck—and how to move forward. If you’ve been confused by terms like trauma, attachment theory, the Stone Age brain, and more, Dr. Merry Lin joins us for a primer that can help us get unstuck—and rebecome who we were meant to be!
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Sheila: Welcome to The Bare Marriage podcast. I’m Sheila Wray Gregoire from baremarriage.com where we like to talk about healthy, evidence-based, biblical advice for your sex life and your marriage. And I am joined today by someone new in the studio. This is so exciting. I have Merry Lin who is a psychologist, and you’re local.
Merry: I am. I didn’t realize how close we lived.
Sheila: I know.
Merry: I literally drove here. This was awesome. I was a little late because of that, because of the Belleville traffic and all of that.
Sheila: There is no traffic in Belleville.
Merry: Compared to the city, that’s true. Toronto, yes.
Sheila: Yes, we both grew up in Toronto, and now you go to Rebecca’s church.
Merry: I do, and that’s how we made the connection. Now I have spoken with you before years ago, and we’ve had some encounters but not really gotten to know each other, and then of course now that I know Rebecca, that’s how we kind of connected.
Sheila: Yeah, so cool. So I honestly don’t have people in my “studio” very often, and so (inaudible).
Merry: I’m so honored.
Sheila: Yes, you wouldn’t believe what this room looks like, like what you guys can’t see on the camera, but anyway.
Merry: You know, it works because I didn’t realize this kind of thing deadens the sound. That’s good to know.
Sheila: Yeah, we’ve got my laundry – my laundry hangs up on one side because more clothes deaden sound. So it’s great. So we are here today to talk about Merry’s new book which is called Rebecoming: Come out of Hiding to Live as Your God-Given Essential Self, and it was released last month at the end of July. So that is awesome.
Merry: Yes, it’s been a whirlwind, didn’t quite know what to expect, but you know this. You’ve published books before so I appreciate sort of being able to sit and talk about it from a different perspective because a lot of the podcasts I’ve been doing has been around what the book is about which I’m happy to talk about, but I appreciate that we are going to do a focus that’s more aligned with your podcast topics.
Sheila: Yeah, it’s going to be fun. So before we jump into that of course I have some thank yous to do. So we just want to thank all of those who make this possible so our wonderful patrons who give money every month as low as $5 a month, and you can join our exclusive Facebook group which is super fun. I often brainstorm there before I release stuff to the public so if you want to be part of saying, “No, Sheila, that’s not going to work,” you can join – you can join that group. And for a little bit more, you can get access to Rebecca’s unfiltered podcasts which are awesome. And if you want to give to support our research and getting our stuff in peer-reviewed journals and doing pastor training and more that we’re putting together, you can get tax deductible receipts in the U.S. through the Good Fruit Faith Initiative of the Bosko Foundation, and the link to those things are in the podcast notes. Okay, Merry, I need to tell our readers before I start asking you questions that I really loved this book, and I will tell you why. It’s because if you know nothing about psychology, Merry goes over everything, and it’s so easy and accessible.
Merry: Thank you.
Sheila: You’ll learn about shame. You’ll learn about trauma – trauma’s effect on the body. You’ve probably heard things like the body keeps the score, and maybe you don’t know what that means. You’re going to learn that. You’re going to learn what trauma responses are like fight, flight, freeze, or faun. You’ll learn about attachment theory, like all the things that people are talking about, and maybe you hear these phrases but you don’t know what they are and how they actually affect you and why they matter. This is not an overly long book. It’s not an academic book. It’s just really accessible for someone who maybe doesn’t understand a lot of the psychological terms, doesn’t know what’s going on with them, why they keep hitting the same brick wall, why they’re having the same issues in their relationships, why they have fear or anxiety, or what to do about it, and so I just really appreciate –
Merry: Thank you.
Sheila: —how accessible this is.
Merry: Thank you. I tried to make it that way because sometimes people will tell me when I get going because I’m like the science geek and I’ll have my friends staring at me with a blank stare. I’m like okay maybe I just went a little too science-y (inaudible), but I just feel like it’s so important that people understand. Yes, we are spiritual beings, but we are also physical beings, emotional beings, psychological beings. And we’re wired this way for a reason, and if we ignore all of that, it’s kind of like ignoring that you’ve got a sore foot or something more serious, and you’re just like well, I’ll just pray it away, and it will be fine. But our emotional health, our psychological health is the same thing. We need to examine and understand what underlies, what is going on for us, and not just dismiss it so that’s kind of like part of the reason why I decided to write this book and wanting it to – not everyone has the ability to afford going to see a therapist, and so I thought this is a good start for people who are really wanting to grow, really wanting to break bad, dysfunctional patterns in their life, really wanting to gain self-awareness, and even wanting to change their relationships. Because the interesting thing about personal change is it leads to relationship changes as well so that’s why ultimately I wanted to write the book.
Sheila: Exactly. I think this is really important because a lot of people can’t afford therapy. It is – or you don’t know who to go to, and it’s difficult if you're in a smaller town, and there’s all kind of issues. What Merry has done is at the end of each chapter, there’s exercises to go through hopefully with someone else. You can talk about why in a minute, but if you just read the book, it’s – it will be really educational as to what all these psychological terms mean and maybe what’s affecting you, but it’s not really going to have any transformation in your life. You actually have to do the exercises.
Merry: Yes, you’ve got to work the program.
Sheila: Like when you go to a therapist, they give you homework. This is your homework, but it’s great homework, and I really appreciate that. Okay, so I was trying to think of how to present this information to our listeners, and one of the things we’ve been talking about a lot for the last few months on the podcast is that in evangelicalism a lot of our resources make it sound like your anxiety, your fear, all of your problems are caused because you’re believing lies and you’re not believing God’s truth, and if you just believe this truth or meditate on this verse everything will be better. So really, Merry, the problem is with you.
Merry: That’s right. Start praying better. Start thinking more positive thoughts. Think biblical thoughts more.
Sheila: Improve.
Merry: Improve.
Sheila: Just improve.
Merry: Just do it. Now. I wish it was that simple. I wish it was.
Sheila: And also a lot of – when we were talking about the book Lies Women Believe, when we were talking about the book The Excellent Wife, just so many of the things we’ve talked about lately have really made emotions sound sinful. So if you are feeling fear, it means you don’t trust God, and so you need to repent of that and get back in line with God’s will for your life. If you don’t, if you're sad or grieving, it means that you don’t realize God’s bigger plan, and you're not accepting his will, etc. etc. etc. What would you say to all that?
Merry: Oh, gosh. How long do I have? You know, first of all, I’ll start off by saying that God created us in a way that is his purpose and his plan. Science actually is biblical because it is rooted in how God has wired us. And he's made us complex beings. We are made in his image. I mean we can’t even begin to fathom the complexity of God so we get to get a little window of it as we look at human nature. So he made us with just from a science standpoint if we look at the brain it releases all sorts of neurochemicals that has a reaction in our body. Now I’m just simplifying it right now. And it just cascades through our body, and it causes certain responses that happen to us. And so if we ignore all of the science that goes on behind it, then we ignore the very keys that God actually gave us to be able to overcome some of the struggles that we have. So first of all with emotions, I got to tell you we are 100% feeling the feels all the time. Everything, every experience goes to the emotional part of your brain first.
Sheila: I actually had that quote from your book that 100% of the information that we get goes through our emotional brains so we can’t say well you should be more rational, or he is rational and she is emotional. No, we’re all emotional.
Merry: We’re all emotional. Let me give you an example of a good – it’s kind of a silly example, but you know what, I’ve decided I need to buy a red Corvette because first of all it’s a great investment. It keeps its value. Red is very safe because people can see it on the road. It’s a collectible. At some point, I’ll be able to resell. It sounds very rational but actually I just want a red Corvette so it’s an emotional decision that we’ve rationalized so that it sounds better. So that’s a problem is that so much of our responses initially goes through the emotional part of our brain, and then we have a chance to respond to it. Sometimes – well, a lot of times – especially if we’re experiencing strong emotions like fear or shame or anger so the big three of the emotions, it’s so rapid, immediate, without thought that it’s releasing all sorts of hormones in our brain. In our bodies actually, and our heartbeat races, and all sorts of things happen, and then we react or respond. If we don’t slow down to kind of go oh what are my emotions telling me I can guarantee we’re going to respond in a way that’s a survival based response. Self-preservation, running away from a situation, all sorts of things which in and of itself is not necessarily bad if you are actually in danger, but most of the time we’re not. And so we react in ways that are self-defensive that can actually cause harm to our ultimately our betterment because we get stuck in these patterns, and it can harm our relationships as well. And then unfortunately because these are sort of hot emotions they hit so fast. We don’t have time practically unless we really are intentional – and all our cool emotions – what I call cool emotions like joy, love, compassion, they take a back seat. They just go [phoosh]. So when somebody gets triggered and a big shame response or a big anger or fear response, and they’re in self-preservation, and self-protective mode, they’re not even thinking about how this is affecting other people. So when you think about some of the stuff you talk about why people do what they do, I don’t – I’m not saying that people are evil or bad in and of themselves. It’s just that they don’t understand why they do what they do and how much of it is actually biological, but the good thing is as a biological being we are the only species that has the ability to override those natural survival instincts. But if we’re not noticing our emotions, we’re ignoring them, we’re pretending like they don’t exist, they are fully in control of us. We’re just able to rationalize our actions after the fact.
Sheila: Yeah, exactly. One of the things I really, really liked – and I want to read this list to you all. So a big point that you make at the very beginning of the book is that we’re stone age beings. Like we were created to survive, like you said. Our brain and our bodies are trying to keep us alive, and so we are wired to react to threats in ways to protect ourselves.
Merry: That’s right.
Sheila: And so much of what we experience emotionally is because of that hard wiring that I need to be protected.
Merry: That’s right.
Sheila: And I just want to read the things that you said -- I got to find the page. Okay, all right, I’m going to read to you this list of things that you say that we do as part of our survival instinct. Okay so number one we give much greater weight and attention to negative information because if it’s bad it might kill you.
Merry: Exactly, exactly, or make me lose my job or affect my relationships, affect it in today’s world too right?
Sheila: Yeah, so when something negative happens we give a lot more weight to than the positive ones.
Merry: Way more.
Sheila: And we focus on it a lot more.
Merry: We do.
Sheila: And that’s not you failing as a human being. That is the way that our brains survive. Okay, number two, we’re really protective of our stuff especially when threatened.
Merry: Yes, our territory, reputation, our capacity to earn a living, all those kinds of things. So think about some of the decisions that people have made over the years and how much it was out of self-protection.
Sheila: Yeah, because you need food, etc. to survive. Okay, three, we really don’t like change and prefer the status quo even if it’s dysfunctional over risky change with no guarantees of success. Again stone age brain.
Merry: Stone age brain because at least I know it’s predictable. It may be uncomfortable, but it’s the same, and I know I can handle it. The thing that’s also really interesting about our brain. Our brain is so highly adaptable. So we can be in a highly dysfunctional situation, and our brain gets used to it. So when it gets used to it, it becomes well it’s at least known. What’s out there is unfamiliar. That sounds more scary. That’s more risky so I’ll just stay in this dysfunctional situation, and that’s happens to so many people in so many relationships.
Sheila: Remember, I’m giving this list not to say these are morally bad things we do or that we do these because we’re sinning. The case you're making is this is hard-wired into us. This is our natural instinct. Number four, we automatically classify others as friend or foe.
Merry: Yes, that’s the tough one.
Sheila: Yeah, because this gets into prejudice and discrimination and everything.
Merry: It does.
Sheila: In groups and out groups.
Merry: It does.
Sheila: As humans, we naturally say are you with me – you’re either with me or against me. You’re either me or you’re not me.
Merry: That’s right. Well, because our needs are for survival typically are in groups – larger groups because we have a group of people we’re more likely to survive. So we’re trying to figure out who our group is. Now there’s a whole other God-given longing to belong. That’s a whole other topic right there, but we don’t look necessarily for belonging. We look for fitting in where we feel like we’re going to be most safe to survive whatever our circumstances are. So you can already see where that could go.
Sheila: Yeah, I’m just thinking of – you see this so much in middle school girls. They’ll join a clique with girls they don’t even like, but they want to fit in.
Merry: They want to fit in because that’s what – and the problem with fitting in is that you have to follow the group rules. You have to act the way they expect you to act. You often have to mask and to pretend to be someone you're not so that you can fit in because the cost otherwise is you would get kicked out, and then there you are at risk again from a survival standpoint.
Sheila: Right, okay. So number five, we barter information like gossip in other words and manage relationships for our benefit. In other words, we manipulate.
Merry: I know.
Sheila: Because we are – we’re social beings, and we need to make sure that we are firmly in the in group.
Merry: That’s right.
Sheila: And the way we do this is by gossiping to make other people not as in as us and manipulating to make sure that people stay close to us.
Merry: Right, right, and also even to get resources, getting access to power often requires a level of manipulation. I mean there's healthy ways of doing that, but right now we’re just talking about the survival instinct and being aware that sometimes I have to pause and go I did that thing because it actually was about me, and it wasn’t actually about what I say it’s for – the group or for the betterment of mankind because I’m helping them or whatever it might be.
Sheila: Right, okay. Number six, we learn to be friendly and empathize with others to build peaceful social alliances. This is the first good one I think.
Merry: I know. It’s true. Yes, but it can also be used – all of these instincts – because they’re neutral. They’re not sinful, bad. They’re just human wiring that God has given us as a way to survive and thrive and all of that. But every single one of them can be used for good or bad so this thing about being able to develop connections is really good because we’re wired to do that, but we can also use those connections for ways that are not always the betterment of others. It’s our own selfish means so that’s part of the challenge.
Sheila: I think what’s interesting too about this as a survival instinct is we are not created to be alone. Then this is a huge thing. This is actually a huge part of healing which we’ll get to later is you really can’t heal alone either.
Merry: No, no. We can’t. Well, this is getting into some of the science as well is that our brain wiring literally gets rewired through connections from birth, and the good news is if you were raised in an abusive home and you go, “Oh, my gosh, I didn’t get any of that nurturing,” you can find healthy relationships today, and you can rewire your brain. Then that means your brain will have better responses, more positive feelings in relationship. It’s impossible to do it on your own. On your own, all you have as you’ve read many books or listen to podcasts is you have a lot of insight, but insight leads to nothing if it’s not applied to your life. It takes risk to do that.
Sheila: Yeah, exactly. Okay, number seven, we gain status by beating our chests more loudly. Can you explain that?
Merry: Well, you know, how many followers do you have on Instagram? Well, first of all, mine sucks. I’ll just tell you that right up front, but status, winning competition, and we have kind of like spiritualized it and made it a good thing. Oh, so-and-so has a church with X thousands and thousands of people. He or she must be very successful.
Sheila: Yeah, God has blessed them.
Merry: God is blessing them. Clearly they did something right, and so it just again it’s a status symbol versus actually what is God doing through us, and sometimes our best ministry is in very small ways. So I got to be honest. The science shows that it’s men in general who are more likely to do that in competitive ways. And this is again huge generalization – females are more like to be collaborative, but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work the opposite way, but that’s just some of those realities of what we do to survive and try to get ahead.
Sheila: Yeah, so this is what’s – this is what I really find interesting about your book and what I really want our listeners to understand is this is a whole different framework of seeing the reasons we do things that we do. Because if we understand, okay, we are actually hard-wired to do these things to survive because God wants us to survive, and God made us social beings, and so these things are hard-wired. We need to pay more attention to negative stuff. If there’s a tornado warning, you need to pay more attention to that than whatever you’re watching on TV or your talk with your mom. You need to pay more attention to negative stuff. We need to pay attention to our social groups, etc. etc., and we might even need to – for the sake of our kids manipulate whatever to get them more food in some of these social groups or whatever it might be. So this is how we’re hard-wired. The thing is though, you know, Jesus comes in and says, “But now, I’m going to show you a better way,” which is – this is our hard wiring, but now we get to choose. And we get to choose how we act. But until we recognize all the things that are affecting our choices today, it’s very difficult to make any of those choices because until we understand why we’re doing what we’re doing, we don’t really have a lot of choice. It’s really a big mess.
Merry: Self-awareness is so key, and you know, I teach on self-awareness all the time, and when I ask people how many of you think you have pretty good self-awareness, most people raise their hand. You know, no disrespect to them because they really believe they have self-awareness, and I think we have self-awareness insofar as we maybe know our opinions, values, etc., but self-awareness in the true sense is how do people experience me. So how self-aware am I, like what’s it like being on the other side of me so I might have good intentions in a certain situation, but if I act in a way that’s hurtful to another person and I’m not aware of that, then that’s a lack of self-awareness so stats (inaudible) a really good study that she did. Only 10-15% of us actually have true self-awareness so if it’s that low we have a long ways to go. She has a little questionnaire you can do, and I was shocked – well, I shouldn’t be shocked. I mean I do this to myself all the time where I do these self-assessments, like oh my gosh, I’m so much worse than I thought, and you realize that even somebody in my field who studies this for a living, and I can see it so readily in other people, but it’s hard to see it in myself. We have blindspots, and we also have this thing I call the shadow self. The shadow self kind of looks like us but a little bit of an [mmmph] because on the outside the behaviors all look the same, our actions, our words, but the difference is underlying it is our motivations. Our motivations for self-preservation. Our reactions when we feel insecure or afraid or angry or we’re triggered with trauma responses. That shadow self can come out and protect us but to a fault because then it prevents us from seeing our blindspots and why we do what we do. And I think a lot of the damage that people do to each other, and I don’t think it’s intentional. I really think it’s because of self-protective shadow shelf coming in and they’ve got a certain narrative in their head based on their own trauma history, their own anxieties, their own insecurities, and they act out of that, and not also being aware of the impact that it has and how much it hurts other people or even harms them based on those actions that they’ve taken.
Sheila: Yeah, because often we don’t even realize we have choices. Let’s say that you’re having a conversation with your spouse, and your spouse says something, and you just blow up at them. You say, “Well, yeah, I blow up at them because look at what they said?” Yeah.
Merry: You can always rationalize it.
Sheila: Look at what they said. Look at – and yet we don’t realize no, my blowing up at them, I did that because of all of these – they triggered me here because maybe I have anxious attachment, maybe I have some stress, whatever it might be, they’ve triggered something. And I reacted out of that. Until we have self-awareness, we aren’t going to be able in the same way to choose to do the right thing and to choose to be healthy. That doesn’t mean that you’re not responsible. I’m not trying to say that it’s not your fault if you blow up at your spouse if you don’t have self-awareness. No, we all have culpability for how we act.
Merry: Yes.
Sheila: But it’s so much harder to stop those things that happen like this if we don’t understand why, and then we don’t do the work to transform.
Merry: Yeah, and the good news is that we’re all – it’s not like we have to work on every single possible thing because we all have certain temperaments and histories, and so there’s a typical for me four to six blindspots – I’m sure there’s more. I’ll eventually discover them, but right now those are the ones I’m working on, and every single time I have a really strong reaction or I overreact or even underreact because some of the ways I cope is I withdraw, what am I feeling? What’s going on for me? So I’ll give you an example. My husband and I – it was on Mother’s Day, and he said, “Oh, can we stop and pick up some downriggers for fishing?” He's big into fishing. I’m like, “Sure. I’m really hungry. I have to go to the washroom so can you make it quick?” Well, he gets involved in this long conversation with a guy because it’s a common interest. And I’m just stewing and stewing and stewing in the car so by the time he comes in, I am about like blowing my lid. I’m like [shrill noises]. He’s like, “I’m going to get you home. Are you hungry? Do you want to stop somewhere?” And then afterwards I asked him, I said, “Did you know why I was so upset?” He goes, “Well, because you were hungry.” And it was true, but I examined what was going on inside myself, and I realized I was getting triggered with feeling that I wasn’t important to him, that I was not a priority with him which when I communicated to him at that level that was a very different response than just getting me some food and making sure I get to a washroom. So it’s those kind of awareness. Unfortunately I still do the blowup things, but so the key thing about true transformation is that it takes a lot of times and a lot of practice so when I talk to leaders, and I do assessments for them, and I give them feedback, they’re almost all going yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that already. So it's not a lack of knowledge. We are not a culture that lacks knowledge. Pickup self-help books. They’re all over the place. It’s our application. It’s using wisdom in how we actually change our response and how we do it repeatedly. Like if I don’t do it repeatedly, I might not – I could stop myself from gossiping today, but then the next day I’m doing it again. So it’s not really changed behavior. It’s just oh yeah, I shouldn’t do that kind of response. So it’s not too discourage people, in fact to encourage because it takes a lot of grace, self-awareness, self-compassion to do the hard work of changing and transforming to be more like Jesus. I mean that’s what we’re called to do. I wish it was just a matter, “Jesus, come into my heart,” and I was automatically transformed and be like him. We already know that’s not true. So it does take work and understanding the way God has wired us is a significant part of being able to do that work.
Sheila: Yeah, I love that. And that’s what your book – you divide it into three things. Insight, wisdom, and transformation. So insight, understanding, all the different things that contribute to why we react the way we do. Attachment issues, stress, fear, all of that, shame. Wisdom is what we’re going to do about it, and then transformation is how you actually make those changes. I really appreciate that. So I thought that maybe I could ask you something that really bugs me about myself.
Merry: Okay, sure.
Sheila: So I have this – I think it’s an abnormal, maybe other people have it – but I have an abnormal fear of my email. Like I find email paralyzing or just messages in general because I’m always afraid they’re going to be critical. So a couple of months ago, I had that video that went viral, the sermon clip of Josh Howerton when Josh Howerton – the wedding night where he was telling women to do what he tells you to do. I got a direct message from an extremely well-known pastor on Twitter, on X, whatever it’s called now. I could see that it was him. I could see I had something from him, but I was so afraid to open it. This happens to me all the time. I had to get my husband – I said, “Keith, you’ve got to come down here.” So he had to come downstairs and he had to look at the message. I said, “Don’t show me the computer. Just look at the message.”
Merry: Just look at the message and see if it’s okay.
Sheila: “And tell me if it’s good and bad and what I should do.” It was actually quite funny, like it was a very, very good message. But I was just so afraid of it, and I get that with my email too. I have an assistant who goes through all my emails, and she only puts the important ones in my box. So I don’t necessarily see most of the messages as they come in, but even in my direct messages – if the message starts with – even if it starts with like, “Sheila, I want to start by saying how much I appreciate” – and that’s often all you can see. That scares me because I’m like there’s a but coming.
Merry: There's a but coming. There’s a but coming. Yeah.
Sheila: I just find it so hard to look at messages. I actually do – yeah, my daughter has access to a lot of my accounts and often I’ll say, “You go read the email, and tell me what it says.” It’s like that’s not healthy.
Merry: Well, I feel like just to give yourself some grace. I mean you’ve had a batch of not really nice emails. I feel like there’s almost like a trauma response that’s happening because email equals something that’s going to be hurtful. You’ve entered into a world of bringing forward truth which is so important. I mean I so admire you for doing this, but it comes with a cost because when you speak truth, you stir the pot of people who don’t believe the same thing or they feel challenged by you which on their end by the way – if they’re insecure enough to attack you, I mean it’s all right. It’s their insecurities, their need to be right that is causing you – that’s causing them to attack you. So there’s I think some trauma response in there for you, but on the other hand, what I would ask you is how familiar is this feeling, and how long has it been going on for?
Sheila: A long time.
Merry: Yeah, so then it makes me wonder in earlier years through experiences at home or at school whether there was criticism that wasn’t always handled well and so your sense of worth – I mean unfortunately this is the generation of parenting and church that we went to was a lot of if/then. If you’re a good girl, then I will love you. If you study hard, then you will be given the top prize. There’s a lot of if/then, and so our – we start to fall into this place of I have to be a certain way to gain love. And you are wired as am I to be loved, to feel a sense of belonging and acceptance, and when you have had experiences that tell you that you can only get that if you act a certain way, then it becomes a very vulnerable place for you, and so that criticism makes you go oh I’m not loved. It’s kind of a big leap to make, and maybe I’m putting myself in your shoes a bit, but when I get criticized that’s the first thing. Deep down, I feel unaccepted, unloved, unvalued. So when you kind of go into the deeper places, it could point out that there’s some healing that has to happen.
Sheila: Yeah, I think I also feel like I’m always afraid I’m wrong. I think that’s a big thing too. I think I – and I probably put too much emphasis on this, but I think I’m only valuable if I’m right. It’s if I’m wrong, then – often I can’t – like if I said a sentence wrong in something, I won’t be able to sleep.
Merry: Yeah, so I mean I would be curious for you to kind of sit with that feeling of how you feel the next time one of these emails come in and you feel like there’s something maybe even wrong with me because I’m wrong, and just let you – and I would do it prayerfully just invite Jesus into it, and just let yourself go to when maybe the first time you ever felt that emotion. And chances are there’s some root unresolved pain in there and some conclusions that you would have made. As little kids, we have experiences that happen, and we make all sorts of conclusions about it. And it may or may not be accurate, and if we don’t share that with trusting adults, they don’t have a chance to repair or change that conclusion we make. And that goes forward. So for me my conclusion was I’m on my own. I have to figure things on my own because of my family history, and I regularly run into those feelings, and so that’s kind of like if it’s a constant feeling and it causes you to stay up at night, it’s telling me it goes more soul deep than just the fact that you’re getting a lot of negative – and it’s so fascinating because here you’re called to speak truth, and yet this is a thing that is also keeping you up at night.
Sheila: Yeah, because I don’t want to be like that. It’s so weird because I’ll have one negative email. I guess this is how you’re saying we pay more attention to the negative information, right?
Merry: Yeah.
Sheila: I’ll have one negative one that will throw me off, but then I’ll have had like 15 that same day that are amazing. You pay attention –
Merry: To the one negative, yeah. And if you look up the numbers of people who support you, I know it far outweighs those who are the haters, far outweighs. But you’re going to pay more attention to the haters because from a survival standpoint obviously they are more risky, but like ultimately, our need to belong, our need to feel loved, our need to be accepted, our need to be valued, to have a sense of a voice, those are all God-given needs, and when they’re threatened, we’re going to have a particular response to it so the key thing is if you’re going to continue doing work where you’re bringing forth truth, these emails are not going to go away. I wish they would so like what strategies can you do to be self-aware of those feelings, be able to soothe yourself, give yourself compassion for it, and then say it does not reflect on me. It actually comes out of – I was talking to my brother-in-law yesterday. I go you know that’s little boy insecurity. He was talking about a situation with his boss. That’s little boy insecurity. So you’re getting a lot of like bullies, little boys, people who are insecure and afraid of losing their sense of power and voice, and they’re the ones attacking you. Being able to think through that but again it could be that you have to do some more earlier types of healing because it could be the thing that’s causing you. It’s like your soul saying to you, “Knock, knock, knock, Sheila, there’s something to be dealt with,” and you’re getting this theme that’s happening. It’s probably worth investigating, and you might need to do some deeper diving into what that looks like. But I think the main thing is a lot of compassion because I think you go into that oh I shouldn’t feel this way. I should be tougher.
Sheila: Yeah, I do.
Merry: Yeah, I’m talking about all this tough stuff, and I should just tolerate it, and I think that’s being unkind to yourself. I mean self-compassion isn’t ignoring the fact that things hurt. It’s not denying that. It’s being really real with it, and it’s giving yourself what are those safe things that you can do for yourself, that can soothe you, that you can connect with God, and with those people who love you, and can reassure you that you are loved and you are wanted and you belong so that it kind of helps from those.
Sheila: We talk here at Bare Marriage a lot about what is wrong with sex and marriage teaching in the church, but did you know that we also have courses to help teach you what is right? We have an orgasm course, which is just awesome. If you are one of the many women who has had trouble reaching orgasm and you're just not sure if you’re ever going to get there, we have something for you to give you hope and to give you really practical help. It’s totally evidence-based. We scoured the literature looking for all the essential ingredients to orgasm, and we laid it out so well for you. So check out our orgasm course. The link is in the podcast notes.
Merry: And then I used to do the strategy which is the stupidest – I don’t know if it’s stupid. It worked for me. I used to do a lot of work where I was encountering a lot of candidates who were trying to be police officers, and we had to turn down a number of them. And so I had to wake up every morning because I would get all sorts of – they would stomp into my office. They would threaten me. There’s all sorts of stuff happening.
Sheila: Oh, wow.
Merry: I know. I had to say to myself every morning which I don’t know why, but I had to say to myself, you know what? As I wake up today, there is somebody who doesn’t like me right now and is thinking bad of me, and I am okay. I kind of had to talk myself through that which was a weird thing to do, but it worked. Yeah, but I think your strategies of asking other people to look at your emails – why not? Why not?
Sheila: It just seems like that is so immature.
Merry: No, no, I don’t think so. I think that’s you being hard on yourself, and you’re not giving yourself enough compassion. Like we all have our vulnerabilities, and in this area, this is yours – one of them. So to have people who love you protect you in this area and it doesn’t mean that you won’t ultimately grow in this and maybe have more resilience towards it because you – I hope you don’t stop doing what you're doing because it’s so important work that you’re doing. This is how the enemy likes to take you down by pushing in these areas of vulnerability. So I don’t think you're being immature. I think you’re being wise, having good boundaries, having other people check for you. You don’t need to read them all. There’s really no value in it, and then let somebody who’s objective, won’t take it personally discern whether it’s something worth replying to.
Sheila: Okay, well, I will do that. You were saying that what a lot of people maybe don’t understand – to pivot a little bit to what I think a lot of our listeners are at is like how do we make such bad decisions. When you end up let’s say with an abuser, you end up staying with an abuser – like why do we do that? Why do abusers do what they do? Because we tend to see it like well she must just be weak, and he must just be mean or vice versa if she’s the one who’s abusive. But how do we get into these terrible dynamics?
Merry: Well, you’re getting to the whole area of co-dependency now. We don’t come into adulthood or relationships unbroken. We come in with broken bits, and in our desire for healing, there’s something about this thing where we tend to be attracted to people who repeat past patterns in the hope somehow – unconsciously – that we can change those patterns. And so if we grew up in a very controlling, like legalistic home, you might go through the extreme and think you married somebody who’s not, but they can still be kind of dominant in an indirect, passive aggressive way. But you find yourself in that same place. So when you’re not self-aware of your hurt, and you’re not dealing with your trauma, you are very, very susceptible to falling into unhealthy relationships. That’s just the way it is. But I don’t think it’s that binary as good and bad. I think all of us have good and bad in us, and all of us have good and maybe not-so-good intentions. It’s the self-blindness that leads to a lack of awareness of our human capability to cause each other great harm. If we look at Jesus as an example of love and it’s sacrificial, it’s always for the other person. It’s always for serving the other person. That’s a very, very different picture, and I really think he came to show us what that looks like. And so he is giving us a model of what we could be. I mean we are made in God’s image. We all have that potential to be like him as we continue to mature. He’s given us that model, but when we stick with right beliefs or wrong – you’re wrong, I’m right, and all those survival things we talked about, in and out group, and all those things – we are going to stay stuck with that. And then the problem is once we’re in a dysfunctional relationship, it’s hard for us to – first of all, part of how we cope is denial. Oh, things aren’t that bad. I mean he always says yes, or he always makes up for it, or he really doesn’t mean it, or it was my fault. I was the one who didn’t clean up the house fast enough, or I denied him sex. You know, really I shouldn’t do that. So there’s a rationalizing that we do, but ultimately, for a lot of people who stay in dysfunctional situations it’s fear. It’s I’d better stay here because it’s familiar. I also don’t want to lose belonging. It’s not even belonging. It’s fitting in so my greater community says that this is what I must endure, and I do not want to lose my place in my community so I will do everything I can to fit in even if it hurts me. The thing is Jesus gives us freedom. He really does, and freedom means true belonging. True belonging is the freedom to have agency. He loves co-creating with us. Even Jesus himself is not a dominating you must do it this way. He's not a rules guy. He’s a love guy, and so he likes to co-create with us which means it gives us great agency. He has so much compassion for our brokenness and our broken bits, and he wants us to grow, and he wants us to heal. And all this beautiful imagery and truths about Jesus so if you’re in a situation that’s not allowing that to happen, then the question is A) what’s keeping you there? What are your injuries, traumas, fears that’s keeping you there – beliefs? And then B) you know, what is your fear of what happens when you go out there? Like the risk – financial? Like a lot of women will say financial risk. I will be excommunicated from my church. My kids will whatever. There’s lots of reasons for it so I’m not saying it’s an easy journey, but I’m saying it’s a doable journey. It’s a necessary journey to have that free life that Jesus promises, and I don’t mean freedom in the way the world thinks of freedom because freedom isn’t I can do whatever the heck I want, and it doesn’t matter. Freedom is more that I can live out of my true, essential self as God has made me to be with agency, with a voice. I matter. I matter. And what I have to say also matters, and what God is asking me to do, what I’m capable of doing also matters. So if I’m in an environment that doesn’t allow that to come out, something has to change.
Sheila: Yeah. That’s so good. That’s so good. And that really brings us to the title of your book, I think, because you explain your book—you explain the title in the first chapter where you said that you were originally going to write a book that was about the Me Too movement or the Church Too movement. But then you realized there was something far more fundamental which is we need to—you called it what? You need to unbecome. Unbecome who—everything that you have become.
Merry: Right. Yes. You have to unbecome all the things that you thought you had to be to feel like you—to be loved and accepted to then rebecome all the things that God has made you to be. Your true essential self. And in the first part of the book, I talk about what I mean by essential self because a lot of people talk about their true self, soulless self, whatever. I chose essential self purposely because when you look in the Scripture the word for soul in the Hebrew language is nephesh, which actually means you are a soul. It doesn’t translate directly. It’s you are a soul, not you have a soul. And then when God says, “Let’s make humankind in Our image,” that word image is essence. So we are made to be a soul with the essence of God. And all of us, because God is so vast, we get to reflect some tiny aspect of His glory to this world. If you think about a Christmas tree with all the lights, one of those lights not blinking, you see it right away. They’re all shining. It’s this gorgeous scenery. And I think that if true freedom is our ability to shine our light in the way that we’re wired to shine our light. And it’s a journey because we have so much stuff that prevents us from doing it whether it’s external or internal. But I have to say it’s the internal that holds us back the most. The self sabotage, the feeling like I don’t belong, or I’m too scared to do this. Because once the inner change happens, the outer begins to change as well.
Sheila: I love that. So one of the things that really struck me in your writing too is you kept encouraging people to heal in community. So as you were working through the book, get someone to talk about it with you. Get a group forum where you can talk about what you’re learning after each chapter. When I think back on a lot of the self help books that I’ve read, a lot of them have been focused on you just need to get this right about God. You just need to work through how to belong with God. And it’s just between you and God, but God did create us to be in community. And I think I’ve missed that part. That it’s very hard to transform on your own. You gave a beautiful story. I would love it if you could tell people about how you were dealing with a lot of shame, and then you went and talked to your mentor. Yeah. Could you tell that story?
Merry: Yeah. Well, I might cry if I tell is. I’ll try not to. I walked away from the church in my teen years. A lot of church abuse and issues. There was some sexual abuse there as well. And ended up marrying non Christian, who is now a Christian. But at the time, he wasn’t. And so I kind of wasn’t walking with the Lord for some time. And in that period of life, I was living in the world full out. And when we started thinking about having kids, I said to Peter, “You know, I wouldn’t mind them growing to know God,” because that was still something super foundational in me that I longed for. And he was like, “Well, okay.” So we checked out a few churches and finally found one. And as I began to draw closer to God, it’s so funny. The very first thing I started to go through was the legalistic aspects of it which is I have to be as holy as possible. I have to try harder. I have to serve, all of those kinds of things, because I had this secret shame of all the junk, of all the things I had done, that I felt like I had to somehow make up for it, make it right. And it just wasn’t working. And I felt like I was one step away from being discovered as a complete imposter. So I was up late one night. I mean I had spent many nights just—what am I going to do? And I was rising up in influence because I can speak and the work that I do. I was getting referred people. People coming for Christian counseling. And I’m like I’m the biggest fraud here trying to do Christian counseling. And then one night my—I was wrestling and wrestling and wrestling. And I heard the Lord say, “You need to tell your mentor everything.” And I immediately went in to fear mode, freeze mode. No. But I couldn’t let it go. So the next morning, I call her. I go, “Is it okay if I come over?” She says, “Sure.” So I come, and I sit down. And I said, “I just had a terrible night wrestling through this. And I feel like I need to tell you everything.” So I sat there for about 30 minutes and told her every single possible thing I had ever done. And she sat there with this look of love on her face. She said nothing. She just nodded. And then at the end, what she did, was she leaned over, and she touched me on the face. It was actually both hands. And she was like, “My dear, you are forgiven.” And it’s not like I didn’t know it in my head, but the experience of somebody who is so godly, so mature, so wise hearing all my junk and then cupping her hands and just showing me such love and acceptance and forgiveness—it’s that felt experience of forgiveness as opposed to intellectually I know God forgives me. And the fact that she never changed how she thought about me. We continued to meet. She never brought it back up again. It was just like it’s finished. And so that was one of the most healing experiences I’ve ever had. And so I think the key part of doing community with others isn’t just so that we bring each other meals, which is nice. But it’s really being able to be truly vulnerable. And vulnerability is one of the hardest things on the face of the planet. It is probably—if you can do vulnerability, you are the bravest person ever. And it’s really hard to do. So vulnerability is with trusted people going into some of the stuff that really are what’s going on for you. Your struggles, your fears, your insecurities, all the mistakes you’ve made, the things that you’re ashamed of. And when you can be greeted with a sense of acceptance, that—there is healing in that.
Sheila: I love that. Because like you said, she didn’t say anything you didn’t already know, right? But somehow we can know it here, and it doesn’t penetrate. It doesn’t penetrate until somebody else—a person with skin on, right? Someone else says it. The same things that Jesus has already said to you, but sometimes we just need someone else in community to say it.
Merry: Yeah. Exactly.
Sheila: That made a profound influence on me when I read the book. I’m like that’s what I’m missing. I’ve been trying to do too much of this alone. And yeah. That’s what I’m missing.
Merry: Mm-hmm. And back to your point about what you were saying about being afraid of looking at the emails, I mean having your community of people protect you—there’s something about that and just saying that that’s okay. I’m not weak. I’m just being wise and protecting my heart against what I don’t need to know.
Sheila: That’s actually nice. That’s nice to reframe it that way. Okay.
Merry: Yeah. Yeah. And then to also consider beyond that because friends who might live different lives and have different perspectives and they can just hold you, have your back, and you’re allowed to complain and whine and do all that stuff even though you know deep down—no. No. No. I’m going to pull myself back together, and I’m going to jump back in. And I’m going to keep doing this because it’s so important, and it’s what I’ve been called to do. Right. Yeah. So having this community around us, that’s what helps us to be able to handle tough stuff. It helps us to deal with our shame. It helps us deal with what we’re afraid of. I mean having people who have our back—oh my gosh. There’s so much power in that. And there is a study where they—I’m just going to say it really quickly. Where they had people holding a knapsack and looking at a hill, and they would estimate how far it was. And I’m making up numbers because my numbers are bad. 100 meters. And then they put a knapsack on their back of 200 pounds. And then same mountain. 150. Suddenly, it got bigger. And then they had somebody stand next to them who was a trusted person, didn’t say anything, didn’t even take the knapsack off their back. They just stood next to them. And that person went back to, oh, it’s 100. And so it’s the knowledge that somebody is with you gives you strength to fight the dragons that you have to fight. It’s so significant.
Sheila: I love that. And that’s also how God hardwired us.
Merry: Exactly.
Sheila: Is for community. And God exists in relationship. He meant for us to exist in relationship.
Merry: Absolutely.
Sheila: Yeah. That’s beautiful.
Merry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was just going to say all the things that we need as humans are also all the ways that we can get those needs met in not so healthy ways that can lead to blind spots and shadow self types of things. So it’s that awareness that those are legitimate needs, but I need to go and get them met in a good way, not in an unhealthy way.
Sheila: I just feel like saying, “Oh, Merry. Can we be friends?” This is only our second time—well, third time meeting, I guess. We spoke together once years and years ago. And then we met at the party that we had locally but never really spoken like—yeah. This is great.
Merry: I love what you’re doing. And I love that you’re being brave and that it’s costing you. I know it’s costing you. And I’m—yeah. I just so much admiration for that.
Sheila: Great to meet another transplanted Torontonian in our little small town.
Merry: Yeah. I know, right? I know. Exactly. Yeah. No. I appreciate you having me here and that you actually read the book, which was great. Awesome. Because it’s not easy reading. I always say my books need to come with a bit of—
Sheila: Well, they are. They’re easy reading in the sense of it’s very accessible. It’s not academic or confusing.
Merry: Right.
Sheila: It’s just—
Merry: Deep.
Sheila: It’s deep. This is going to uncover some things. Yeah. So I really appreciate that. So the book, again, is Rebecoming by Dr. Merry C. Lin. And Merry is M E R R Y like Merry Christmas.
Merry: Yes.
Sheila: And where can people find you?
Merry: Well, my website, drmerry.com. Again, M E R R Y. And the book is available on all the different Amazons, Barnes and Nobles, all the different book. And it’s coming—it’s available in hard cover, soft cover, eBook, and also audio book soon.
Sheila: Yes. Yes. I think it’s already available by the time this is out. So yes.
Merry: Is it? Yeah. I think so. Okay.
Sheila: Yes. And I will put links to the book and to drmerry.com on the podcast notes. So thank you so much.
Merry: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Sheila. This was great.
Sheila: One of the things I love most about being able to do this podcast is bringing you these resources that I think are awesome and letting you all know about them because I know that therapy is expensive. And I know that often we talk about some of these concepts like trauma and attachment and not everyone knows what they are. And I just found Rebecoming to be one of the best books that I’ve ever read that explains all these things in really easy terms but also gives you such practical exercises to work through things so that it’s not just about head knowledge. But it’s about really changing your life. So it’s a really inexpensive book, and I really encourage you to get it. So thank you for joining me on the Bare Marriage podcast. Remember that you can support us by rating this podcast five stars wherever you listen to it, telling other people about it, joining our new Facebook page because our old one was hacked. So we’re having a great time on our new one. And if you want to get an exclusive Facebook group where you can actually interact more with me, please join our patron. It’s such a fun place, and you can join for as little as $5 a month. So the link to all those things including the wonderful book, Rebecoming, are in the podcast notes. And I will see you again next week on the Bare Marriage podcast. Bye-bye.