The one with Giles Pegram

Giles is one of the most successful fundraisers I know. He dramatically changed the fortunes of the NSPCC over the course of three decades, taking them from an income of under £5 million with reserves that would keep them going for just two months to an organisation with a huge national reach and an income of over 140 million a year.

You'll find out how he achieved this as he shares his thoughts on how to appoint and work with agencies, how to run successful capital campaigns, the importance of thanking, how he led his team, his thoughts about why innovation can be a problem and, importantly, his views on why people give.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
hello for we kick off in earnest. I'd like to give a little introduction to what this is about. When it comes to fundraising, there are two errors by work that fascinate me. I have an abiding obsession in understanding why people give what they want to achieve with their donations on what sort of relationship they want to have with the charities they actually support. But I also realised that many people tackle these problems before, and I'd be crazy to think I can't learn from them. That's why I'm so interested in the history of our profession. Whatever the idea we come up with today, somebody else has already tested it on somebody else has probably already improved on it. So I've decided to speak to some of the greatest fundraisers I know people have many decades of experience of tackling the problems that sector faces today and find out what I can learn from them. And in this series, I'll be showing what I discover. I'm starting with the true great. Charles Pegram started fundraising journey in the early 19 sixties, Vier, Oxfam and help the Aged. He went on to transform me an S P. C C. Over the next 18 minutes, you'll hear how he engaged the wealthy and not so wealthy, how he captured the public imagination on how he created the most successful fundraising campaign in modern British charity history or based on principles that come directly from the Middle Ages. Jars came equipped with charts and other resources that you'll find on my block. Clear ideas dot co dot UK. You don't need necessarily to see them to understand what he's talking about, but they do help. If you'd like to know more about Charles, you confined him at Joe's. Pegram dot com If you're working on a major campaign, I can't really think of anyone who's been a place to make it a success. It was a real pleasure spending time with him, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. So Welcome to Episode one off Why People Give Hello, John. Hello, Mark. How are you? I'm very well. I'm delighted to

spk_1:   1:58
be here. Thank you for inviting me.

spk_0:   1:59
You're very, very welcome. It's a great honour. Teo. Happy here? Let's kick off with how you actually start Fund started, OK? I was a volunteer, so

spk_1:   2:10
it was I was 10 okay? Had somebody from Oxfam came in to the school on the school assembly and did a talk about them on, but they moved. So a 10 I appointed to some editors, we created a school magazine which we sold for a penny in the school playground on DH that developed involved. More people get involved on Ben way built up the experience to a jumble sale. When I was about 12. Andi organises jumble sale. It was again great fun. Um, but the state it was just fun. But I sent the cheque for £80 with you. What we raised at the jumble sale in

spk_0:   2:54
what year was that? Sorry was 1962 before you were born pretty much at that time on DH. Within a few days, I got a letter. Now two of your boys don't get letters, but I got this letter, um, through the

spk_1:   3:15
door Trouble, boy. And is that a hand signed by the director ofthe off, ma'am? Andi, you can see that the first paragraph is personalised to me. Um, you're jumble sale, blah blah, blah, blah. Rah. Then, of course, there's from paragraphs there, every standard on their final personal life Paragraph. I now realise, of course, that this was done on one of the first versions of ah of a piece here. We don't now, Marge, but the 12 year old boy to get a letter like this hand signed by the director of Oxfam it was just knock out. It was Wow, Andi, I think he was. That started my career in fundraising. Um, on DH now, sometimes I do mystery shopping with my clients on DH. I'm sure you know this, but one of my chance I got to send £10.2 churches I named Gladys. You want to get there? And do you know what? The most common first response to the donation Wass

spk_0:   4:20
Another asked for donations. No, left a bit bold left book, raffle tickets. Okay, I just I can't

spk_1:   4:26
believe it. Somebody has gone to the trouble off deciding to make a donation to motivate contribution. Now that would mean a significant decision. So when they're sent it off, I didn't like the look like decision. What's to be done with the money will be also questioned in a person's mind. Election they get back is not a thank you is the Book of Leviticus and I just think that's appalling because I think people got lessons like this on. Your people have looked at it. They'll see how good it is. I don't think thank you. This is a better now, but they'll see how 12 year old boy decided to become a career fundraiser.

spk_0:   5:04
And it's quite lucky that a letter like that was written to you. You know, how different would our profession bay? What would have happened to organisations like our family Help the aged or any specie or in every other organisation should work with? If this didn't start you out on a journey that ended up with you running some of the most successful appeals ever ever run by charities

spk_1:   5:28
And that's why I just tell people that the first thank you letter for the first gift it almost the most important that you ever right, because that's the letter which makes the donors feel that they may do, like decision to give, reinforces their decision to give, hopefully give some feedback on what their donation has done, hopefully gift information about current project Andi just e submitted the engagement with

spk_0:   5:56
the court. There's a statistic that Damon had brain from us directing island ship with May a personal receives an acknowledgment within 48 hours of the receive. Their gift is four times more likely to give again. I hadn't heard that statistic. 48 hours for

spk_1:   6:15
big Charity is a tough are on. I remember at SBC having to get together a ll the managers from the post in department, the cashier's department, the support services department, the post out department, and just get together. How half when we cut the time in the process is because the process is we're taking a week, maybe 10 days if you I just believe what you just said. Which is if you can get a thank you letter out within 48 hours if you do exactly what I said. You kind of reassured that I made the acquisition. You don't really quickly, you know. You know, guys, string out. Who was director of Oxfam? You must have heard of it.

spk_0:   7:03
I'm a guy. Okay? I've met guy once, very earlier on and I think I went to a presentation of his one of the early I f sees he had this little e. I went toe talk that management and he had his a Russian sled dog. Teo. I speak another time. Another time

spk_1:   7:25
when he would hear I was still working voluntarily. Flock's family, like the way through you. When the university and I got to know guys drinking on DH when he was director of Awesome, he would ask his post in people or what? He wants to let him have details of every person that had given their first gift of over a certain amount. And he'd ask to have that by the afternoon. Did you come in through coming in the morning? He will get it in the afternoon. And then he would spend the evening making 20 phone calls. Two people saying them We got your donation today. This guy Stringer, and develop them. I just want you. So somebody somebody post the letter one afternoon, and the next evening they got the drifter. Look, someone so whatever your statistical, that suspect, you could probably double it. Well, if you would do that, would anyone do that?

spk_0:   8:19
Now? I have never heard of that before. I've thought of the order person on bits, and it's not very common taking thank you letters and writing annotations on them, which I've always always thought very good. We did some work with help for heroes a number of years ago, and they had a great thanking process and they would call them for office on bay would ensure that every single thank you letter went out was personalised in some way over and above Just print area. Andi. I also was that level of personalisation was unusual, but what you've said it was amazing. I know it's a weird movie. So how did you make the transfer to, you know, you know, adult fundraising, whether you were paid on. No, but okay, I'm not stupid

spk_1:   9:12
will be busy. But at the end of my time, at school's way had a very big Oxfam society and we were doing a sponsored walk. We did responsible in 1967 when I was 17 on it was very successful. So we did a much bigger one in 19 68. And then we decided 1969 to do the biggest sponsors walk. They never bean on dead Master said you can't do that from school. You got to do it from outside sit so well with 12 of us worked full time flocks. Fans paid a pittance, but we organise the largest walk has ever seen. And I think there's something still on path. The news about the war and I think that's the only reference. But it it's if you did it to people. It's lovely to watch because it just shows the way people spoke and thought about young people in 1969

spk_0:   10:02
on the way to Wembley a day are blistering heat and blistering feet. 50,000 youngsters walked tow wage war on what? From 11 points around London. Each one of them sponsored teenagers, teenagers and 20 is slogged for up to 30 miles in the big Oxfam operation. It was organised by youngsters and performed by youngsters, and it was no fun. But every step brought the cause closer to its quarter of a 1,000,000. Calm talking. Wait!

spk_1:   10:33
A pop concert with the top groups of the time.

spk_0:   10:35
There was a charity pop concept before live eight. Absolutely. I never

spk_1:   10:41
fair. Yes, theyjust quo. What sort of group? One at when we say you go for the walkers, they their lives. So anyway, I then went to university and did a degree in logic, which probably won't surprise you from, wasn't it, say later on today, And then when I left, I was head hunted by help the aged because they hadn't known that I've done this walk and they recruited me to head up a team of people doing to do similar walks in various towns across the UK because they had a very inspirational founder says, I'm just cold. You may have heard off most of your audience work.

spk_0:   11:24
Cecil was found with ActionAid. Indeed, I have

spk_1:   11:28
aged. Andi was 60 of Oxfam said. He was a big figure in

spk_0:   11:32
the sixties, I think anchor housing as well, which we said

spk_1:   11:34
yes, yes, indeed, Yes, on that was all funded. Of course, by would be the first social social enterprise, which was Andrews and Partners, which was an office equipment manufacturer on all their profits, went into setting up new charity anyway, so that's a digression. So I went to help the aged in 1969 1973 when I left University on the night of the three, fundraising was not a profession, so I thought, Well, I'll give it three years because doffing their management position and I get management experience. And then I go off and get what my mother called a proper job. I just I just got hooked, so I stayed with help. The Aged on the motive you have you will be aged 29 79 and then got the job. A director of fundraising communication that expediency,

spk_0:   12:29
If I'm correct you ahead of youth fundraising, that's it on DH, that was their highest include you. Now if you If you set that to daily about a charity aimed at helping old people that then largest amount of money were coming in from young people, it's almost unbelievable. How What did you do? First

spk_1:   12:50
of all, we recruited young people who wanted to extroverts. And then we had a film and they went out and there was a formulaic approach. They would talk to her teachers, get to talk to the school, organise you get people to come to get this possible. It's formulaic approach. Andi just rolled it out and rode it out and rode it out across the country.

spk_0:   13:16
And so after help the aged, you made the move to any species on

spk_1:   13:20
another species. He waas was on its last legs. Had two months reserves.

spk_0:   13:27
What year was this? This

spk_1:   13:28
was 1979 beginning of 1980 on DH. They made all with all of their money at that time through local volunteer committed on DH. There's no individual giving, no major giving nickel giving. They're wass up people descended money Tio tio the S P C C on DH. There'll be a card made out for them. It will be kept in a shoe box And there was a blow of two boxes on the on the shelf in support of services. And then what's a year on the anniversary off a donor's gift. They would be sent a letter saying Would you like to make another gift?

spk_0:   14:14
So its annual giving

spk_1:   14:16
unless they've given over £500 given over £500 they weren't said anything at all because we felt that they've done enough for the court

spk_0:   14:26
that would give a thank you thank you with the other

spk_1:   14:30
£5 but they wouldn't hear anything else again. E u back now You think you know, obviously mad.

spk_0:   14:39
I find that you get that today you know. I remember once I remember name mentioned name the organisation, but I was quite a long time supporter and eventually gave a very, very large gift forefinger gift. I don't think I ever asked me for another donation. You know, I think I went into the major giving department. Yeah, and I got lighter and it's it's phase. I think I still have a low level D D that runs with him, but it's that much later

spk_1:   15:08
on. That was a problem that I faced in his P. C. C wass that individual givers on midlevel givers had a, um, programme is now fully supported. Jenny. The trouble was that one summer given over sent amount of money, they were thought to be so important they'll be dealt with by an individual, so they had an individual made it down. A manager can't manage to look after them. But the problem with that is that they stopped getting the routine communications. So I don't have been getting regular communications from the support of journey from the mid level. Don't department suddenly stopped getting the communication. All they got was like a phone call once a year. So can I. come and see you so that it was just what you were saying in a way that you you became more personalised. But you actually stopped the routine communication.

spk_0:   16:01
You fall into a black hole that you formed a black hole way said a great deal today. But in wait See, they managed to persuade it to start any specie. This this organisation that's hard to believe but were on their last legs two months reserves on. I

spk_1:   16:19
went around talking to various people and well being. I talked to cheque for Grid McMullen, who was a major PR consultant on DH. We decided together that rather than making incremental changes to the IPCC, we would like to go all out and we have a major appeal and we said What's the biggest appeal has been done so far and at that time, back in 1980 80 it was £10 million. Okay, so let's go over £12 million on DH. We got the trustees to buy into it because they really needed the money and we organised the Centenary appeal on Centeon. Repeal Blade. £15 million against drug £1,000,000 target on DH set the ball rolling for them. Future growth and income on Got a chart, which you can see. We're pretty flattered around £3 million up until what we were planning. A major appeal. The maid repeal is the purple bit and you thought a significant increase in income and in the year of the Centenary and then some pledges coming in in the next couple of years. But the really extraordinary thing about that graph is what then happened to calling come in the years after the appeal. So by the time you got to 1991 which was 123456 years after the appeal, relating £30 million a year. So the £12 million forced of appeal seemed almost like a blip a time when we were waiting £3 million a year trying to determine impound appeal sounds extraordinary. One thing that I don't think challenges think enough about major appeals, and that's part of their You had fundraising portfolio because they can raise an extraordinary amount of money that was not for capital project. It was a reorganisation of services, but it basically kick started the transformations species from great

spk_0:   18:18
I never met Redman, but don't know much. He done this before and well, yes, and it was this in the US or was this you

spk_1:   18:26
know, in the UK? OK, but based on principles that were developed in the US and they turned, were based on principles to go right the way back to related

spk_0:   18:37
on DH those early UK well, they things like cathedrals. He was raising money for stopping Kathy's things like that.

spk_1:   18:45
Yes, on DH, I tell a Storey accomplices about Troy's Cathedral in 13 89 and how they raise the money for it on DH. One thing, which again I'll come on to it, is that I believe in learning best practise and then using that best practise and building on it. And that's what we did. We basically didn't really let the wheel We used the proven practise applied to the IPCC. What? I was thinking to it on DH. Set up the major giving department, the corporate department,

spk_0:   19:18
There any books around or courses that you go to that time Where did you learn things? This was the thing

spk_1:   19:24
In 1979 which we're now, there was no institute. There was no form for people to meet. There were no training courses there would know the conventions. No academy. No, there's nothing, really. What? Nothing. Families is worked on their own. Um, on one or two people had written case studies of various appears that Paul's renovation of people. But there were kind of restless books that you've talked to. Ken had written relationship.

spk_0:   20:02
Okay, that was somewhere off. So you and Redman went into this meeting and said to the board of trustees of the CEO that was

spk_1:   20:11
attended the meeting board of trustees. Yeah. Wait, I wanna go to process now. But with the first getting the chief executive involved, getting the trustees involved, getting moved by into the investment that would be needed on DH. Then we just get on, did it.

spk_0:   20:26
And everyone believed you. You didn't have to deal with naysayers. And this had never happened. Our vice chairman

spk_1:   20:35
at the time wass the wonderful Countess Mountbatten of Burma. Okay, and I think she's still alive. Okay, I think I have heard if you if you hadn't and she said, isn't troubling pounds a bit high? The target shouldn't go for, say, £6 million. And I said, Well, we go over £12 million maybe only rage tense, always go for £6 million maybe wait seven. Which would you rather have a £10 million failure or £7 million success?

spk_0:   21:07
And she obviously went to the

spk_1:   21:08
£10 million failure which she may have done. But this is Steve. I'm sure he does work

spk_0:   21:14
and what were the core elements? Because we have had discussions before about your major don't repeal, which has influenced me in terms of the work that we create today as an approach. And I'll also put some examples of that on the block as well, so people would take a look at that. The strategic principles that

spk_1:   21:36
underpin both the city. An appeal on the fault of appeal. We're probably 21 is that you had to get the appeal committee toe own both the need, the solution on the money raised to meet the solution on that took a lot of time on a lot of major appeals. Now they have appeal board to come in. They give advice than the go away again, but they don't own the target. But if you could move people to a situation where that does take two years. It took both appeals to get people to the stage where they actually said, What we really believe it. We now own that. Now How are we going to do it? So is a responsibility being on the staff responsibly Transfers to the volunteers on the role of staff becomes to support the volunteers delivering their target, and that that is an extraordinary phenomenon on

spk_0:   22:36
DH. That's what I'm going to ask. How do you get that shift toe?

spk_1:   22:42
We said you wanted a CZ chair. We thought the youthful Westminster was a good idea. Margaret Thatcher was an X trusty princess. Margaret was our president, Lady Horan Martin with a formidable chair. And so those three women did a pincer movement on the due for Westminster on over the course of a year, he said Yes, he chaired. And so then we built on him so he would come up with some names on DH. We book a meeting for him and me to see this person in two months time on day, cancel a meeting, people meeting in another two months time and they say Yes, that's quite interesting. Come back and see me in another two months time and one time you better zoom. So what was charity? Will you? Against you goes in his long process of just it's quite similar to a lot of what we do today is engaging people, bringing them into, not bring into the court yet, but also accepting. It takes time to bring someone from a standing start to really believing in the cause on believing in the need and the believing in solution on believing in the target. Um, and I remember to this day I remember the second meeting off the appeal board on Bilby off working with their little sex about how much they could read ennui. Stage managed this event as her course in writing How ST and Mark Weinberg now somewhat Weinberg, who was treasurer of the time. I had a pocket calculator and basically he went around the world saying, How much do you think you've been raising the feed? How much you? I went around the whole love, Um, and they said, Oh, that comes to 14.2 million and 70. There's a breakout of Wow, we could do it. And that was the point which it moved from being a staff owned initiative to the volunteers, saying, We shouldn't do this. We need to make it

spk_0:   24:49
work. Let's go back to the Duke of Westminster. You managed to get him involved because he had three people he was close to. They exploited him toe, engage. But how did you get the ownership? Did he go and see projects to be? Meet some of the Children of families? You will work? Yeah, a time. Or for

spk_1:   25:07
that said that project visits meetings at the national Centre with the director. But I again I can't. There's not time in this sand and you do. But you just go to a a ll. The things that you would expect to do in engaging someone to become a very major prospect on bit's a gradual closest in their minds that they gradually become more more brought in. They see more more off. The work is down the solutions of the dam. They meet the director. They have cut confidence. Andi just developed them and engagements on because it is a linear process. Things will be making clothes. This is suddenly things go wrong. And you you have to kind of pull it up, Back up, graduate driving forward. But it basically to begin with wass me, the Duke of Westminster, on his contacts. And then they're cut the context contacts one least four leased to 16 leads to 64. You very quickly moved from a small number of people. And with their contacts and their contest, their content, you get to a very large number people quite quickly. So the early days were torture us in the extremes with you d one by one. But they're suddenly kind of took over off. People engaged their own contacts. There only got about, isn't we? Rain flooded billets for them, along with all the rest of it to get involved. But that was number one. Number two is thie F tables. People can contribute through adoption. The donations organising an event. What have you on DH? The key is the top gift. The number one gift has to be the 10th off the total target. And you didn't cascade downs Forget. But you end up with a situation where something like 60 gifts makes up 80% of the target on DH. That is actually question because if if the If the appeal is flatter than that, you're simply having to deal with far too many prospects. If it's if it's tightened that you're trying to get a gift. The high step, which is too high. So the second key strategic thing is to get the appeal board to buy into that particular gift table that has the wrong gift. It's such I gives it. Such 20 gives it such 100 gift

spk_0:   27:38
on DH. This appeal is it Is, it developed, was getting public momentum behind you, part of the process of engaging the very well think that there's a conventional

spk_1:   27:48
wisdom, but you have to get a significant portion off your gift. Make appeal from the what's called a private faith on didn't have a public face on DH simply because of lack of time. We weren't able to do that by that Centeno full stop, so he basically launched the appeal att the same time we were starting to get major gifts, but that actually worked in our favour because there was a public launch and that would be when that poster was started to be used on DH, all sorts of other things as well so the thing went out into the public domain. But at the same time, potential major donors would see published around the DP off, but also and therefore be more inclined to support. So you got the public activity. There was public facing on the private fishing activity happening sometimes.

spk_0:   28:41
So if we give, we go back to your chart. Andi, look at the blue element. The that wasn't Was that continued gift coming in from wealthy people? Or was that much more? Why did

spk_1:   28:53
so So what happened is between that 1981 where you served three million on DH the 1995 when the appeal it come in. What happened during that time was that in order to raise thie £12 million we have to have new staff, new volunteers, new donors, Um, you ways working And you added all those together and suddenly you were completely different organisations by the end of the Centennial field. And so the important point was that halfway through the appeal, we started the pants for consolidation because in a sense, the appeal with almost like a donor acquisition exercise, almost none of the people who gave of sending your appeal had being donors previously. So what we had at the end wass identify a major donor file on the corporate Mr Corbett Contact. So to the growth was simply built on the fact that we have the new donors, the new volunteers, the new members of staff in the new way of working,

spk_0:   30:00
one of the first times we met was to discuss on the literature that you produce for that appeal, in particular, the brochure you developed now the idea for

spk_1:   30:09
that ocean came from such in Sochi on what they said were basically, just do a simple loose leaf bind of things that you do in a presentation today have ah, electrical letter forms. Margaret present Margaret Thatcher as dead prime minister, but previously a trustee on the defence minister's chair. Um, if you've blown your load stats and figures as some photographs, that would have come from snappy snaps just forward and out on DH. I thought that was a brilliant idea. Now my country, my personal contribution to that wass in at the party. So I wanted to make sure that the stock paper stock we used for the Princess Margaret letter wants the paper stop that she used as if the Crestwood embossed not printed dis a Margaret Thatcher A different paper stock still white but with the Downing Street Crest in buffed the view for Westerners to use a slightly beige that again got his crest in Boston. Well, the multi coloured with signatures toe every single letter you open the Rocha on it, had your name at the top. And then you see a little bit of Margaret letter from down issues, etcetera. Margaret Thatcher, Whatever you may think of a politics, he was a good songwriter. She was hand written letter on the bottom two ps. I include my own cheque, which I think was a brilliant piece of fundraising. But my job was to make sure that the quality ofthe everything in that brochure with impeccable on Lord 40 the late Lord 40 actually sent his back. So you may want to use these letters for somebody else. He really thought that we created that thing just for him. And I don't know whether you didn't used to got the You got some images somewhere having to do that.

spk_0:   32:05
Yeah. I managed to hunt down. They were released. You know the 30 year old on DH. That was when I first came stumbling upon knows. You know, I spent enough time looking in archives, and that's why I dug it up. But that approach you using, then that's what we now use, right for a major major work. We work with a bank, DBS Bank on the Optimist Foundation. We have a very, very similar approach. You know, the right person asks, We ensure that that knows that this is just not a brochure. We highlight the different summer war make. One of our major donors had never given to the Optimus Foundation before when he was asked what what what made you give the gift? And he said, What was that posted on the mound? You know, this that the dog's elements is you said at the outset they still impact. Nothing changes. I just want to pick up

spk_1:   33:03
my world up later. When we look for advertising agency in 1980 such insight, you were the pick of the club, so I simply appointed them. They didn't produce really

spk_0:   33:19
Were Did you work with Charles and Maurice soul? No,

spk_1:   33:21
it was It was low down a TTE that time on DH, they came out with the great ideas on DH. All I did was have the judgement say yes, That's a great idea. Let's really go with that and make it work.

spk_0:   33:33
And so you had this growth. Things will grow and you started out best part of three million by the beginning of the nineties were on almost 30. I think by the time you left and it's PCC, you want over £140 million a year? Yes. Yeah, that's a massive growth. Yes, If we eat, you know, that's that outpaces inflation by a factor of over yes

spk_1:   33:57
on DH so that the most important thing is that we go from being number 15 in the CF Fundraising de table to be number three Cath Research UK. Of course, we'll have beatable and still our legacy. How well, I also think the merger of two of the largest churches and they became by father largest charity way. We're kind of up there with Oxfam Income, second place. So that was that was the growth. And I think we come on to my campaign. I would say that one of my campaigns with the entire 30 year campaign to conform fundraising of the PCC on Looking back on the block, innit? It happened in six discreet stages, and I didn't know that when I started. But it was how it evolved through the The two appeals were actually a pivot off in terms of increasing growth twice.

spk_0:   34:50
Because if we move on to that, that second jump full stop campaign which still has, you know, mythical status the West today, my father, how much that Reyes was it we'll talk. It was two

spk_1:   35:03
150 million, and we raised 274 million. Okay? And again, I'm just quickly in 1995 the senior management team of the species he went from away. We assume the whole charities would be thinking about what they would do around the millennium on DH. Archie views agent Jim Harding in 95 head. If we really have a National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, our ultimate aim should be to end quoted to Children. Now, these days you've got the end poverty cook coalition. You've got finding a cure for cancer. You've got finding a cure for him. It's so anything things have become standard. But in 1995 no charity talked about ending anything. Everything was about making a difference in the margins. So that was That was a phenomenal thing to say. They were all taken aback on then, at some point a few minutes after the siege, as if we were to go for campaign to include Children. How much extra money could you ways? And I thought, Well, the biggest appeal so far has been to the world of the house, and that was 100 million ensure he had included the Children's worth. More than that, I said Go into the other. Inspections were about 500 million back in 1995 but that would have be incredible. So I just pulled to £50 million out of midair on the following day was agreed within seconds. It's all happened within a few minutes, went to the office following days, but my senior managers together told that the meeting told my and included Children told them I'm committed to them, raising us raising 2 50 million on they bought into it two hours later. We are all of the staff in the office together, gave him the same message. Some of them were enthusiastic because interspecies he was aspirational organisation. Some needed time to think to actually against it. So you're going to destroy the PCC? It far too big, you're mad, but we we cope with that on DH. It's a bit like Charles Handy. You achieve changing a nanosecond. So with it, within 24 hours we were launching to £50 million appeal. The big thing then was how you actually went about doing it

spk_0:   37:17
and had things changed over the years between the

spk_1:   37:22
testicles. But don't don't have todo detail about about all over the house wife. It is really it isn't really relevant, but we were now a much bigger organisation.

spk_0:   37:32
But in terms of the approach you had to, the second appeals brother in the first

spk_1:   37:36
are, Well, this's where I think I have an enormous advantage because having as it were, got my baby teeth doing the city. A repeal would render Merlin's help on learning from him all the time. I felt confident that we can use exactly the same approach with exactly the same two principles owning the target. The contribution table on did exactly the same thing with the full stop appeal. Usually exactly the same methods. But obviously, you know, with a lot of new thinking of new ideas, et cetera

spk_0:   38:09
On which agency were you working on that point?

spk_1:   38:12
Um, in terms of GM or above the line or

spk_0:   38:16
the people filled the Sochi role in terms of developing such again. Okay, you start with. They've been successful once. No reason to change. One of the first things I

spk_1:   38:26
did when I joined Eunice, PCC was realising that we didn't have a on individual giving programmes or direct marketing programmes, as it was called. That is a simple way. Was had one on DH. Someone had recommended W W V What's the water? But Bandele Oh, okay. So I went to see John Watson and Renowned Award. Now we had lunch, Met, talked and I like them on DH. So I pointed them their 11th spot. There was no chemistry meeting, no creative pitch, no competitive pitch. They just want the business on DH. We stayed with them 30 years. I never they changed because they get being bought up, whatever it may be. Lap and let Collins and things I never change agency. What I did with every five years I bought in an organisation for agency insight, which you probably heard off, and they basically come in and they go through the numbers, the costs, everything with a fine tooth comb. They don't negotiate with the agency. You're charging too much on that. What's that expended to doing us? Etcetera said they would negotiate to make sure that we're getting the best possible deal. But our people, there's PC and the count people at wife and rap. We never involved that they should be got on with doing the work. They weren't involved in having to kind of of get the agency to re pitch. I just I just didn't believe it on now I have a small chances going through chemistry meeting, mistreat three agencies and then getting competitive pictures, and you must get on the receiving end of this and it's just a little it's

spk_0:   40:17
It's stupid. It's really stupid. No wonder one of the issues that you sometimes here is we want to go out there and see if there is fresh thinking or there are new ideas. Was that ever mentioned there was a species that people want to go out and see if there was a new approach that could be followed.

spk_1:   40:41
I was confident that if we were working with the white people in the agency and they were bringing on the right people into the agency will be getting the new ideas. We we didn't need to change agencies to get new ideas. We build a new ideas in house Onda again. Something I learnt when I preparing for this This session today is I don't have ideas. I carried the agency on the staff being staff without me to have ideas. Why would I go to another agency? Although what happened is that they bring the principles into a fantastic pret pitch. And then you get some Yes, checking greatest doing the work of the account. Why bother? Would much rather build a relationship? So I still eh, John Watson, of

spk_0:   41:28
course. And you must've been a joy to work way. Att that time. Let's move on a little. Now I want to get a little bit more back into the questions that way. Spoke about the fundamental bow in this thiss syriza podcast is why people give I love to hear your opinion of why people give to charity.

spk_1:   41:58
Actually, let me let me out said in three parts. I'll tell you what I learned from my biggest mentor. Why people do give, I believe at the moment, in many cases on why people should give now by the time we got to and I was part of founding the institute in 1983 and the FC in Holland started their convention before the I lifted. And so I would go to the flea presentation in Holland, saying, Then you was Now that's where I met Kim Burnett. We've got friends on DH one speeches just about every year was tackled. How assumptions. Now he is some of the greatest work for Oxfam, um, as an advertising agency man. But he was advertising agency professional aunt. He he had a brilliant way off using words. So let me just bring out some of his aphorisms. The charity is the agent of the donor. Open their hearts, open their minds, Della in their wallets. All three in that order present the lead powerful e not to shock, but to engage because success produced his congratulations. But need produces results people give to people, not organisations. Um, how many people now say gift to the IPCC not give to help abused Children? Clever copy doesn't work. That was something we found you Clever headlines The kind of stuff that commercial people used to work for. Guns awards? Absolutely. And the stuff that with the world and the one I love Fundraising is not about money. It's about important work that needs doing. If you start by asking for money, you won't get it. And you were deserve it.

spk_0:   44:00
And Lisa from Harold often. How, and you just pick these up, noted them down or to think TV producer Pamplona. I

spk_1:   44:07
picked up a note in the back like a dog, but other people came in. It picked the mouth. Matthew Sherington number. What were honey motivated by him? And that was where I think the whole notion of donor lead fundraising came from. Um, so when we get to why people give to charity, I fear that in many cases, still, charities are trying to persuade people to give money to the charity. Um, on DH, I don't like that approach. So I first say that fundraising is about inspiring people to want to make a difference to the world by giving to the cause. I'm feeling great about it, and that's what I think we should do in terms of dona motivations. But we don't We should tell people that they can make a difference. The charity is the fearful for donors to help beneficiaries in court it, as I say people don't if the species they give to help Children risk of cruelty. And so that leads you to understanding the motivation so some donors will will give out of compassionate is empathy, others of vision for a different world. Other people will give out of a sense of belonging. Go on. A race for life will become on a committee. Some people give the national reasons. They like the facts and the figures some people give in memoriam, so understanding individual owners make sure you're capturing thie. Motivation, I think, is very important. Um, but there's I found online's fantastic that side which were put up on DH. I just don't need to be better. I don't want you to make them believe that they made the right decision to support you. I don't want to know what you've achieved with their money. They want to know you value them. They want you to see their special. They want you to remember what they've done, what they said. They want you to know why they give on what they care about. They want you to ask them how they want to communicate with him. They want to believe that with you together, you solve the problem. Oh, gosh, it's got blue fog, the bottom.

spk_0:   46:36
I was sitting there thinking, I can't argue with that. Ah, it's the diagram. Well,

spk_1:   46:46
so I can see I'm doing Mark Food booth for blocks and images that come up in the first line. But that's a fantastic Andi. Those quotes. Given that, that's why people should be giving to charity. That's what fundraisers need to know. It's not about your chart. What things that the charity wants to tell The donor we want a lot of fundraising is about fundraising should be about things that the donor wants to hear from the charity. And that's, you know, that's your continues at 180 degree shift.

spk_0:   47:20
Absolutely. And thank you very much that you know, for anyone listening, I did not know that was gonna happen? No, that's the whole point. Yeah, I get it.

spk_1:   47:32
The measures hierarchy of needs. Um so for a lot of people give people give out of a sense of belonging, of love. Some people give out a sense of esteem and accomplishment. But for some donors, I think we're taking them or should be. Taking them on a journey to self actualisation and self actualisation is about being the very best that you could be on DH. We had a donor thing. Was Emma houses really worth leaving? A grand house, which I do got is a roundhouse. She's a self made millionaire. She has the biggest. How she could want her Children, the best education, they going the best holders, what more they need in life. And we cultivated her over a fairly long period for the fourth appeal. And she made her first gift of a £1,000,000. And she felt actually fantastic about being able to do that. And she said, Can I come and talk to other potential donors and she would go and talk two other potential donors in full stop and say the reason I get up in the morning to go to work to make money. In all that, I could give more money to help, including two Children. I I don't think that many fundraisers think in those terms about how they can make a donor seal that sense of self actualisation. Asai comeback to It'll be about persuading people to give money

spk_0:   49:07
rather than help that at beneficiary and in terms of the why should I would, y should

spk_1:   49:16
is it is. It is because the donor could make a difference. It's about inspiring donors to want to change the world by helping the cause on DH. That's where you come back to how people give to people, not organisations. So a ll the best. Thank God, all the best individual giving copy talks about Kate Case, that is, it is individual people who've been helped by the charity. That's what people give money to. You know that Susan was like this and she died. Matthew is in need. You could help to prevent him dying. It becomes simple. So you charge line. We promoted the pieces. He that the child outside the phone box looking sad intervention by the PCC happy child at the end. That's what people give money to.

spk_0:   50:17
I think my name was Ellie. Well, that was that. That was the first time That was the first

spk_1:   50:23
TV ad that worked. The TV was made legal in 1991 on what happened to begin with. His charities made clever ads. Um, and they didn't work, so they would cut the length of by half and they still didn't work, and they cut them by half again. And it didn't work on John Watson. I went out for lunch and said, You know what? What can we do about it? And I like to came half responsibility, but it will be here. It'll be him. So basically, we know that with direct mail, it's long copy adds that work. So shouldn't we be take taking our best performing mailing and then turning that into a long, two minute TV ed the same storeys? Andi We did, and it was called a leaf, and it was directed by David Bailey, and it was a phenomenal success. And so the two years we kept quiet about it, but just pumped it out again and again and again. And gradually, after two years, the sector caught up on DH. That was the foundation ofthe D R TV. But I said before, um, we spent a couple of years refining that Elliot. But the ASDA were using in 1993 identical to the answer to be used today. The whole approach is the same and I really don't understand it because we know so much more about donor motivations. Why people give etcetera. I don't understand why d r tv Just loaning out the same old stuff. I won't name names, but you look at sky TV and just that they all look the same. You can't differentiate between

spk_0:   52:12
those only adds what were they asking for their cash gift

spk_1:   52:15
to found a month?

spk_0:   52:16
I don't want to

spk_1:   52:16
be dead. By then, Ox fan had started the low, never legally giving. Now I think I've got good judgement. I made my mistake because when I heard about to pound a month, I thought I thought £2 is too low and amount for people to feel they should really make a difference. I have a sceptical, but I was the problem and of course, once we tried regular leaving and it worked. We then focus all our attention on regular giving. I don't what an SPC does now, but our feeling at the time with that convert cash give us two regular give us when regular giving instead of constantly having to ask for cash. You could send more mailings that simply give feedback. Do it here but set reception because only from time to time you need to ask him what grade they're mailing will give another cash gift. So that's where you talk about the increased in regular giving that that was a dramatic part of the growth of the species.

spk_0:   53:19
Because one of things that way see now is a real flatlining in our research. We find that what, What people are really doing it. Sheriff Wallet. Now that somebody is starting a new director of it, it may 1 day they're gonna cancel another one on DH. People tend to steak, and it's quite weird that we're seeing on average about maybe five D d 60 gs on DH. That's it. Then they'll start. Then their start cancelling. So that's enough. They're not adding, adding new ones on. But in your time, obviously human Oxfam and perhaps also ActionAid as well. You know, the direct debits were. We're still very new, you know, the paper list of director of it, which allowed you to sign someone up on the phone with a game was a new innovation, wasn't it? In the 19 early night before then you have to get your mandate signed at

spk_1:   54:15
the end of this conversation, that this talk talk about the future where I save a few to be.

spk_0:   54:20
But I hold that. But just having nothing. That

spk_1:   54:26
Centenary job of what you'll see is the same way we're running at about £50 million a year. You then see the full stop appealed to £50 million over a longer period of time. Their dramatic growth, including come. But what they few people notice is the growth in court income while the appeal was taking place. And that again, is something that I'm quite proud of so that their little chart there, which I got Alan three months very into this sort of thing to be used on what we did is said OK, supposing with basket of charities in regular giving. Supposing we take a £1,000,000 reserves on day one on invested in recruiting, regular giving as in take into account upgrades, attrition, cash, gift and costs. And look at the net income from that cohort that recruited over a period of time and then compare it that that's the red lines compared with the blue line, which is what would happen to the reserves if we kept you in stocks and shares. Now what you see, of course, is that for the 1st 2 years of my guest, is this 10 years ago? My guess is it's more than two years before you get break even now, as everyone worries about that period there where you're making a net loss. But what people don't realise is if you look at the human did income over 10 years, what is it? Nearly 10 times as much destruction shares. So I got that chart showed it to the finance director. We showed it to the treasure. We showed the Finance Committee. They towed it like mad, and then they were convinced this's why don't we just investing massively there so both because of that chart and because of the fact that we were getting published around full of appeal, the final Storey said. Invest as much as you can in recruiting you Regular giving.

spk_0:   56:32
That's nice to hear from. Your finances

spk_1:   56:34
are bad. Slipped on. We have to stay with her. We can't invest that fast because we have to test. We have to roll out test again. But what? We didn't know that that that period full stop appeal is just invested massively into recruiting your regular givers. I can't remember the numbers now, but with the increasing numbers of Rigel given we had over the course of the fourth Dhampir would absolutely massive and then provided the basis for growth

spk_0:   57:01
and going on. And this period, did you need to worry much about attrition cancellations or was that not a major problem?

spk_1:   57:11
Okay, um, I used to go to the court, the meeting with the agency on. They started being quite small. And then people want more, more people's repeating your name, not be about 18 people around the table. And it was mad and I hated it and then loaded people give presentations, be slides with cyber dad violent for with lots of working and they were really busy. I sat through it, but then my contribution wass um analysis inside and so what I would do is I wait till there's something interesting and then they stop there. Let's look into that pro. Why did that happen? What? Why did that test work better than that? Why did the other has on one of the areas that I was always obsessed with? What we got to the sides on attrition? Because we've been working with the same agency for a long time. We had, you know, the attrition condemned, recruited 10 years ago, attrition from nine years ago? A So we could see each year. How does had last in the years following. And that was one of the sets. If eyes out with most interesting, which was, um, how, how how is our attrition rate? How lapsed owners going? Are we improving the length of time that we kept with the donor? Because for May, and I think that's mine from from your question, once you recruited a donor, what the most important thing is to keep them going on the whole Chairman Burton mentality I hated. I will always be looking for how how do we prove improved nutrition? And in the end, we were getting less than 10% nutrition years well, less contempt.

spk_0:   59:16
But now people talk about direct debit attrition rates at 60 70% each year after more middle of crazy, but not not unusual. What about favour? Ideas? Campaign? You've really given us detailed insight into some fantastic ones. Is there anything else? You I'm

spk_1:   59:39
there so many. Okay, I knew you could create a sort of pick up sticks that the first, obviously the fool thought appeal. I don't know what you seen or read any which determines work, but he has this great belief that he developed a solar weight of donors of the channel so that instead of mass marketing you used to donors and their networks in the network and that's precisely what Full Stop did. So off the 2 50 million, 50 million were from individual giving that we had to allocate the appeal. But 200 million all came from people who knew people who knew people. We recruited a small team of staff to come up with fundraising ideas on a farm like a recall. Not one of the fundraising ideas come up with by staff with you a ll the ideas, fantastic ideas. So many came onto the volunteers themselves. They had the idea. I have been the, um the networks that drive to make it work on DH. So we started with six people around the table who actually sent a cable we've now taken. We'd be involved now. For the past year, we've looked in D sail at every aspect of the proposal to including Children. What what they projects would be. We've looked at the numbers. We've looked at y 2 50 minutes need with really gone into that great rigour, which he did over six months of a steering group. And at the end of that time, six of them came together on DH. They will, they would have thought that have distrusted with their partners. Um, they will be seeking out self actualisation living if I'm part of this to £50 million appeal, and I think John's don't like people to help me, um, you know, I could really cute off. And so there were six people around the table at the first meeting on DH. The first thing was to allocate the target, so I thought it'd be as a discussion about how you allocate the targets. So, uh, the corporate chap around them said Okay, why don't we do I take on 50. And when you take on 50 from the region's David, will you take on 25 million from sport? Mark, will you take on 25 minutes for huge numbers on DH? Yes. Yes. Okay, that's it. I'm done on the target's percent within a minute because they didn't want to discuss targets. They wanted to get down to the nitty gritty of how they're going to make this work. And those targets The target's ever changed. The amounts came in slightly different, but they weren't worrying about the, um the kind of thing that committee is normally worried about they were concerned about. You were six people. We own this incredible target have held a meeting, but that don't that six, then by subcommittees, Event Committee is subsequent et cetera. Toe lived about 2000 volunteers who were all within a structure. So each committee had haven't ripped into another committee. So I would meet people, and I wouldn't know what pretty their arm or what they were doing or how they fit in. But what I wouldn't know is that they did fit into the structure somewhere they weren't just load operators.

spk_0:   1:3:05
So in effect you were allowing those donors to raise money in the way that worked very much for them.

spk_1:   1:3:11
Yes, which then had enormous implications. Would you give me a good time to go into great detail today? But it meant the staff targets had to be completely rethought because the job of the staff would help the volunteers raise their targets, not to raise the rent. And sometimes it may just find it very difficult not to have targets they were judged against but to be judged against softer criteria about relationship. They're building, et cetera.

spk_0:   1:3:38
But that was, but that was a horrible, but it was still possible. You were awful. Wow, that's that's very interesting. What do you have to

spk_1:   1:3:46
be talked about? And the Elliot I'm even though I just had lunch with John, Watson said, What a fantastic idea. Why did I do feel a part of that? The best in recruiting regular Give us. I think it's very good. Um, the growing from 15 to third is something that I look back on and they're proud off. Um, one of the things. The thing with integration so just give you an example. We had a woman who was the chair off. Our voluntary pretty is a town, Um actually chaired the voluntary committee for years and years and years, and they did coffee mornings and events. What have you? And then for the full stop appeal, she got her husband, who owned a major company to adopt theatres, PCC. He wanted to get their staff to become individual givers. So we need to get the individual giving person together with the regional person and the corporate person. And then we identified that the couple in their own right were potential major donors who had to get the major donor person. So we actually had four foot grassroots fundraisers. It couldn't be the manager's. There were just too many of them. There are four glass roof fundraisers, and they had to take responsibility for creating an integrated support mechanism to the whole operation. Made you giving corporate partnership local fundraising individual giving um, on DH the extraordinary about that wars because there was so much going on. Management couldn't manage it. The people himself had to manage it on DH. What was really interesting, but not surprising. It's supposed to have three of those four people being quite strong, one being weak, the precious, those three people on the one weak person with far greater than any management pressure could be. You have a team of four people responsible for maximising the relationship from that family and company, and they were gonna damn well make sure that they all pulled.

spk_0:   1:6:01
And how did you generate that? Sort of. I had that ethic within your within these groups

spk_1:   1:6:09
over time. Lots of workshops. Uh, a lot of process. A lot of things that I hated. Workshops with round tables of six people. Flip charts post it notes. I detested those things, but they they engaged people in the problem. I have to go along.

spk_0:   1:6:33
Okay, so which leads us on his mistake? Because they're this's this is

spk_1:   1:6:39
really interested because I looked at that on DH. I couldn't think of the many. Um, there must be some and I got a few, I could tell you, but what I realised which I hadn't realised until I worked on this presentation is that not only am I not a people person, but if ideas person either other people came up with the ideas. Either we pull best practise people would have value to best practise. People come in with their own ideas. What I contributed was bigger analysis, probing, stating I would think a lot. But I didn't come up with ideas. So other people came up with ideas of some of the works. Some of them didn't and I'd be able to assess them and say, Well, yes, that will weaken pushing that what we weren't. But I won't actually ideas person Andi only you asked about campaigns being E only worked on three campaigns. Really? What has? Well, we're with the city Repeal every lot of deal and the clothes from 30 to 50 after third that they were three campaigns

spk_0:   1:7:53
and said

spk_1:   1:7:54
that they want none of those three things were creative ideas. You're crazy. People would rescue. Created was that they were just thoughts about the madman who I just thought big.

spk_0:   1:8:06
So when people were coming up with those ideas, you would question and you would probe. Obviously, at that point, your building on those ideas are pushing them in different directions where you see opportunities. It's not like that's not gonna work. It's like how committed that.

spk_1:   1:8:22
Yeah, but what I realised preparing for this is that I didn't come up with the opportunities in the main. I would drop with the analysis. So just an example that one of my senior men just came back from America on DH. He's seen a presentation about fantastic new way of recruiting local committees from individual givers on the file. Andi, they have a track record of doing it in the States. And I was I was very sceptical. I couldn't see it, but, you know, he was a senior manager on Let's do It. And so I got into seven success criteria. And so he

spk_0:   1:8:59
said, so successful in that mission.

spk_1:   1:9:02
Ambitious, don't you think we should reduce that? And we do that feast for test. So we ended up with a set of success criteria which were less demanding that he had wanted expected. So it was a doddle. Six months later, they have failed completely. Anytime buddies up with we would learn so much, you know, Now we know we really do it well. I will study every single foot chest right here. Nothing you've told me has convinced me that we should leave different. No way did go ahead. So was it in the state to let him go ahead with the project? I don't think so. People have to be given permission to fail. Was I like to say no? We don't do it again. Yes. One things you thought asked me to think about. With what advice would you give fundraisers today on DH? I think the most important advice allowed here would be to understand the past. Um, find out what the best practises in your area of operation and then build on it, or the starter if you think it's wrong. But don't ignore it. Don't Don't simply come up with Oh, you know, you must think of a new idea.

spk_0:   1:10:18
Is innovation without understand? I'm

spk_1:   1:10:20
afraid that innovation is one of my least favourite words. Um, remember the PCC, the senior management team, saying innovation should be one of the organization's success criteria. On what? Why why is innovation per se a good thing? Um, and I see now people talking about fundraising is broken. We need to come up with new ideas, innovate new ways of doing things, and I think knows that that man we need. We need to look at the past, and I don't think we're looking at the past enough. And I looked at the convention programme and far too little is about training new fundraising in the basics of of motivating down and inspiring et cetera. Um, so do you know what I think was with the the most expensive distraction from fundraising in the last 10 years? And you did, you know? I

spk_0:   1:11:24
know, but it's a great way to put it that that line a distraction from fundraising carry on. You know, Beckett. Okay, You know who it for? It was originally think was originally from a less. Which is the American like neuron disease.

spk_1:   1:11:43
Very clever. Very clever. I couldn't remember the last light. I know many of you remember that on, and it was incredibly successful on DH. I would look up. The number of post on YouTube blended millions of people. Um, but they were doing in a zoo, a stunt at the mayor's raise money, but they wouldn't have become regular givers of the charity. But what's more is that charges across the country will be sitting down saying, What's our ice bucket challenge? What's really doing. We've

spk_0:   1:12:16
got loads of brief say we want a nice bucket challenge. We came up with a couple of good ideas. That's man.

spk_1:   1:12:23
That's not the way that fundraising involved on DH. It was me that too much training is niche, and we need to go back and focus on the basics. And I think if if, if you do ask me about predictions for the future, I think you go one of two ways. I think it depends on whether we learn from the mistakes of 2015 and Olive Cook telephone fundraising, um, which told us what not to do but focus on what to do better. So that was why Ted and I founded the Commission on the Death Experience are now part of the supportive project, which is about making it real. I'm worried that now people talk about the donor experience they don't experience to the job brief but drop title, but I don't know whether they're really doing it. Um, I think fundraising should continue to be about donors at the heart of fundraising. Um, on DH. I think that when people say the world has changed, we need to start again on that leads from obsession with new ideas I think we should go back to I said, Get back to basics because somebody made letter thing you don't say with The resistance is going back to the fact that people today I have the same motivations to want to make a difference to the world as they had 100 years ago in 1000 years ago. The difference if we now know a lot more, with much better and sharing what we know. Adrian Sergeant has done some work which supported experience, and I and others were working on, and he has demonstrated with academic rigour. If you give the donor a great experience of supporting your cause, you've been double income. So I think that while some people think that they're kind of managing decline in fundraising, I think the vast untapped potential because if we take what we know, what we've learned and then apply the donor motivation we know about, and then apply the technology that is increasingly enabling us to look at donors a segments of one, we have the potential to a vastly more money and deep down the vastly better experience. So I'm hoping that people will almost go bat in order to go forward. I would like to Seymour Major fields that the centenarian four stop. I'd like to see people really understanding Dona motivations and seeing how to apply in their work. I don't know how we get that culture change. What I say a lot. It is that what we need to do is to get fundraisers, to think every time they're meeting a donor every time they're writing a bit of direct mail, copy every time that interacting with the donor our sense of what? What experience is the supporter or potential order having right now what is experience? We want them tohave and therefore, what we need to change right now and then A planning. Ah, strategy for the future. What is the experience that the donor has had since they first saw the recruitment material? What is experience we want them to have over the next year on what we need to change on DH? It really is me. If I wrote a book, it would just have the one page with that on it because it'll be different for every fundraiser, every donor, every type of donut every channel. But the most important thing is to think what the experience of the donor is having, and how can I improve it on DH? That's what least be done. I travel users. So how do we change the culture within fundraising to make that happen?

spk_0:   1:16:32
But that one, the reasons why I'm doing these interviews, this is how we can change that culture. What things do you think have improved? So what's what's improved? You know, over that time, so we might have lost that contact with the past. We would have lost that contract with what donors want. But what things do you think of improved

spk_1:   1:16:54
thie If I go back to my fundraising lifetime? And if I looked at fundraising 1983 before there was, I think the very fact off setting up the institute, which I've put my hand up to being a part of. Of the third chair chair I found convention. There's a convention chair, whatever on DH. Now Peter Lewis is his heavy up, an organisation which is massive in terms of special interest groups, regional groups trading, the academy courses. I mean, there's so much Mohr interaction now between fundraisers. There's so much sharing off wisdom. Best practise

spk_0:   1:17:40
as that is, they're sharing of worst pack practise. Yes. Oh, yeah. I think they

spk_1:   1:17:44
do sessions on what we've learned, what we did wrong. And I think I think, yeah, I think in terms of night between 1983 and now I think the positive professionalism of fundraising, I think is extraordinary. And I think young fundraisers today probably think that you should always existed and he hasn't it. It's some. It only happened in my lifetime. So that for me, is that professionals were fundraising. That, that is, is the biggest good thing that's happened. The problem is when fundraising professionalism is a double edged sword because fundraising Khun B professional can mean slick on mechanised. Andi, I would get worried about, um we talked about relationships for donors. And, of course, relationship with donors should be long term on debt. We measure short term performance very worlds of our offices. Whisper budget is one of my quote. Um, I remember learning Ash Ridge thie special women wig. Haven't we heard women witness what you measure is what you get. But on DH, we measure short term financial performance we put in annual budgets. We look the performance against budget against the quarter gets last year. His budget, everything is measured. In short, send the short term, and yet we say two fundraisers that we want them to think long term. But until chief executive trustees start to see the benefits of long term relationships with donors, then I think that the real problem I think there's a short termism that there's a CEO who comes in wants to make their mark, wants to see growth quickly. There is the long term perspective on fundraising on the other thing is, I think that the bad side of professionalism is where fundraising becomes kind of mechanised that we that we fundraise at people way send out mailings wi you. We fund raiser at people rather than engaging people so that that's the good and bad side of professionalism. I think

spk_0:   1:20:14
thank you so much for your time today. That has been a real pleasure and I have learned a lot and

spk_1:   1:20:21
I've enjoyed it enormously. I just like to summarise the whole of the hour and 1/2 two things. The first is that I was seduced by the whole idea off. What works? So you spent X. Um You did a spit text test. You did. You spend. Next. You've got why you spent X. You've got more than why. So the 2nd 1 works better. Andi. I was seduced by that for years and years and years about what works works, meaning short term income on it was only when I really started working on the traditional Don't experience that. I thought just important as short term income is how you're leaving the donor feeling. Because if you've got an appeal that works but leaves the donor feeling bad on appeal works slightly west less well. But leave the donor feeling good. Then you're ultimately going two ways more money raised the longer and leave a request. So my closing remarks is Think about the donor thinking about the experience that donor is having because that if you start there you are. Don't forget. You can read Maura about the ins and outs of fundraising at queer ideas dot co dot UK

spk_0:   1:21:48
wonder overto blue frog London dot com. Thank you for listening. So why people give junior