The one with Ken Burnett

This was another treat for me. Ken remains a huge influence on my thinking and this is the first time I’ve been able to dig into who and what influenced him.

We kick off with a history of ActionAid. Ken shows how an open mind and the implementation of best practice saw a small niche charity sky rocket in popularity. Pay particular attention to his comments on testing. Plenty to be learned here about innovation and how even the most unconventional recruitment practices can pay dividends.

It’s when we get to the question of why people give that things get really interesting. We discuss how artifice seems to have taken over from engagement for many organisations. We also cover leadership, the supporter experience and how the fundamentals of fundraising seem to have been forgotten – and how they are essential for our future success.

Ken takes us through some of his favourite appeals and explains why they worked and what made them successful and finally we move on to his thoughts for the future. We revisit best practice again before Ken makes a few trademark points about the need to switch from fundraising and focus on how we can be part of the change the world movement instead. All the resources can be downloaded on my blog, queerideas.co.uk

Transcript

spk_1:   0:00
Hello Today I'm speaking. One of the godfathers of modern fundraising came Burnett. This was a great discussion. First, we hear about the foundations of action ate and how it grew from nothing to become a top 20 charity within just a few years. There's plenty of stuff here for anyone interested in innovation on. Of course, Ken answers the question. Why do people give? But more importantly, he looks back over 40 years of his work and considers why charities seem increasingly unwilling to invest in fundraising. He also questions the leadership of the sector on Suggests a lack of understanding of the history of fundraising has let many of the problems that we face today as he turns to where we go next. We talk about refining the sector's purpose. Perhaps the word fundraising isn't as useful as it once wass, and he makes a very good suggestion for a replacement. As previously, you confined a whole host of resources that can refers to on my block. Queer ideas dot co dot UK. You don't need them in front of you when you're listening, but they're useful if you want a deeper level of understanding. I hope you enjoy listening. It was a huge learning opportunity for May, and hopefully it will help your fundraising as well. So welcome to why do people give Episode two? It's very kind of you to be here today. It's a pleasure. Absolutely. One of the joys of doing this and podcast is I'm meeting some of my favourite fund racist. The people who have influenced May and obviously, relationship fundraising is very high up in my own personal library, but not

spk_0:   1:45
quite up there with George Smith's asking properly but nearly there,

spk_1:   1:49
sadly, sadly, as a purse section before the person There's no art directed. That book just nudged it about fuels

spk_0:   2:00
allows. That was me. That's fine.

spk_1:   2:05
I'd like to kick off. I don't know much about I know a little about your history. Obviously, we both share on employer with ActionAid formative years. But how did you first get into fundraising?

spk_0:   2:21
Okay, but that is quite a storey, I have to say, and truly remarkable, because I was recruited by one of our sectors. True, great, but a very charismatic but flawed individual called Cecil Jackson Cole, who was founder ofthe ActionAid, which at that time was called action and distress. But he was also the founder ofthe help the aged on DH, founder ofthe Oxfam. He was the businessman who kept up from going after the war because, he said, over there, main reason they've been started had come to an end. With the end of the war, he said, There's a world of need ight there on DH, we should keep going. And he was really a true Victorian philanthropist. Use a self made businessman on. He was driven to make a difference in the world. But I didn't realise that at the time I was recruited on DH. The recruitment process, I think, is worth commenting on because it was one of the hardest, longest, our most difficult. I had five interviews for the job on DH. I had come from the publishing sector when I've been doing quite well. I had I was 26 years old. I was living in North Kensington when I had bought my own flat. I was driving a company BMW on DH. I was Jack the lad, but I decided that I wanted to do something more worthwhile, wanted to do something that I actually had a significance rather than the high pressure publishing business. So I thought it would be nice to work for a charity and go home at five o'clock, feeling I've done something useful rather than go home at nine o'clock for the publishing company and work or weekends, too. So I was interviewed. I had five interviews, and in the final interview I was seriously wondering whether this organisation was really for me. And there are four candidates shortlisted. We were all waiting in the reception area off Cecil Jackson calls Flat and Dover Street, which was above the help the aged officers on DH Jackson. Cole had started help the Aged, which was a challenge. He for older people run by older people. And he wanted action stress to be a child charity for young people run by young people. So I was 26 years old on the post he was interviewing before was UK director joint chief executive. To be quite honest, I had no idea what he'd been talking about in most of the other for interviews. But in the final interview before of shortlisted candidates, we're all waiting, and then I happened to be invited in first on DH There were only two people there. The recess, Sir Jackson called himself on one of the trustees have helped the age of the guy called Frank Baker, who became a great friend on DH. 10 minutes into the interview, Jackson Cole stood up and said, This is the one. This will do it. A very curious thing song voice on DH He stood up and he made killing you saying This is him. This will do This is that this is the man And Frank Baker was

spk_1:   5:48
appalled. He said, You can't possibly leave. There's three other candidates waiting

spk_0:   5:52
outside Jackson also. No, no, this is him. The flu on that was how I found that I had had got a job

spk_1:   6:00
and you were CEO of Action.

spk_0:   6:02
I was joint chief executive with a guy called Rip Hudson. Andi. I really did wonder what I had got into. But I have to say, working for someone like Face of Jackson called. I had no idea until I've been working for the organisation for quite some time. Just how significant Jackson called Bean in the storey of charity in written, he was actually known as Mr Charity, and I was later involved when it was decided that he should be given a blue plaque for outside his business in Oxford. He was a very difficult man. He was five foot two tall and fed ical in shape. He was like a very large chicken on DH. He was given to temper tantrums and throwing typewriters of people. But he believed in people on DH. He pursued them. When I left ActionAid to go travelling in Africa, he found out that I wanted to work in overthe East, wanted work directly in projects and he said Oh, you could be overseas Director of help the agent on I said Well, that's very interesting, CJ but I actually know the overseas directors helped the agent and he's still employed. He said only that Teo Hey was indeed very eccentric, but it was truly unusual introduction to the fundraising business and it was particularly great because two of my trustees in action a action in distress is it wass then were handled assumption on DSA. Leslie Kirkley Addled was the architect of Oxfam's advertising on DH. Leslie correctly was formed director of Oxfam on had Bean crime agent on DH. Both of those to a They were wonderful gentlemen on DH be. They were hugely knowledgeable, and they were very supportive of me. In my role, they kind of protected me from the were successes of this mercurial founder special Jackson Coles, who I came to like I worked with him through the last two years of his life. So, um, s I didn't I didn't have long working for him. He died in 1979 by which time I was already travelling in Africa and Europe. And I spent a year on the road and I came back. Andrea Hudson by then was the full chief executive, and he gave me the job of being director of fundraising and communication.

spk_1:   8:53
What, in the initial run, then? So how long will your action in distress Before you did the trip? Two

spk_0:   8:59
years and then the two years I think I was born like I had worked harder than I'd ever had to work in my life. And it was a very, very demanding period. But it was also very successful, period. So and I learned something which I think is the core of my love of fundraising, which wass that when I was appointed. On my first day, I found I was doomed to failure because I had a target that had been given to me by special Jackson call to recruit five phase in new sponsors at an advertising budget of 60 Phase and Pains. And at that time, that was costing £24 to recruit us. So I did. My son's on the first day, I think, by 11 30 I thought, in a way I could possibly do this. It's just not going to work. So I am sat down and started talking to a few people in looking at a few other things, and at that point we were specifically only allowed to advertise. Using the religious press on actually didn't actually distress, had built up a body off some experience in terms of what worked, what didn't impress advertising. But it was all rooted in in the Tablet and the Catholic Herald and the Methodist recorded and things like that, and I thought, If I'm gonna have a chance of getting my target, we've got to try something new. So at that time, 1/4 page black and white in the Observer Colour magazine was 3400 something pains and I took all my carriage in both hands, took the risk, bought 1/4 page, sat back on DH. Lo and behold, Suddenly we were recruiting new supporters at a unit cost of lesson two pens on DH. This transformed ActionAid on DH showed me the, I think, quite unparalleled excitement of a bee split testing. Um, rigorous recording of results from monitoring. Keeping a detailed guard book could happen. Sophie on DH, I found that I absolutely love this business of acquiring on developing donors. Andi, that's I was I was hooked to it. Absolutely still persisting with ActionAid. None of us like the name, action and distress. It was a horrible, contrived device to give the initials a d.

spk_1:   11:44
You didn't do a rebrand.

spk_0:   11:46
I don't let no way we didn't renaming on. What happened was that I was leaving on DH. We were all ripped, and I were drawing up lists of names and stroking the maid, wrestling with the weirdest suggested names for the organisation. And I said to him I had use the telegraphic address and no state people listening won't know what a telegraphic address isn't. It doesn't really matter. But the telegraphic address was ActionAid London. Andi I used it for our trading company because one of the things I found was that the charity had been trading legally, didn't have a tracing company and I had to set up a trading company very quickly. And I like to name actually. So actually trading and promotions was born. My centre, the board who would all white male, privileged men from the science of England, most of estate agents at the time I said, I think we should call the charity ActionAid and they said Yes. Yes, yes. Off you go. Because I was heading off for what turned out to be a nearly two years of sabbatical, always on DH. So they kind of humour me on DH catalogue Storey short. When I came back nearly two years later, the name of the organisation changed ActionAid and it was recorded. This was my suggestion, so

spk_1:   13:09
I gave ActionAid its name. It's quite interesting because an Oxfam is telegraphic address,

spk_0:   13:17
not put that Connexion together. But you're absolutely right, because it was originally the Oxford Committee for Family leave. Yeah, Andi came up something that was Yeah, How interesting. I haven't actually joined up the dogs on that.

spk_1:   13:30
Yeah, the power away of new technology. And how new technology can influence organising

spk_0:   13:36
what's happened. Now you know the good old days and telegraphic addresses anymore. Yes, I learned a great deal at Action Aid, but an awful lot of it was I learned from how assumption who founded the international fundraising Congress on who wass in my my mind to Godfather Live fundraising in this in the UK And he was the one who talked me about the need to put the donor at the heart of your consideration on DH. So I think we were very donor focused at the time. But at the time, there was no institute of fundraising that would almost conferences that no good books on fundraising on DE. So I decided to write one. There you go. It was great working with all the people that actually it was a really energising time. We had potential. I remember Hudson saying to me, were so successful, what do you need? You know, way could reinvest in acquisition on DH. I had the privilege before I actually left the role of director of fundraising communication. ActionAid became a top 20 charity from

spk_1:   14:57
No way our top 20

spk_0:   14:58
169 or something like that, we had that There was a league table of charities that was published on I remember we were barely in the bottom end of it. We became known as the first direct marketed charity. The George Smith and I ran This event, which was called Direct Mail, the last UN explored fundraising frontier and people were queuing up in the street to get into this event, including clients of ours, is. At that time I was working with George. We've started Burnett Associates. We had clients of ours who were queuing up to pay the £50 entry figure whatever for the insights to this last one explored fundraising medium called Direct Mail. In that time, direct mail was unknown. First, press advertising was in decline. It was really press advertising. But I had developed, I think, a fairly considerable body of experience and a practise in because it was such involved. It's so involved. Rigorous testing and, of course, direct mail, equally learned, lends itself to a variety of opportunities for former testing, creative testing and so Then there was the insect campaign's off course. The insert campaigns were significant because what happened with the acquisition programme? ActionAid Was that it? The more you advertise the closer together that your advertisements appeared more than negatively effects response. So we fairly quickly reached a point where we saturated the very limited range of banker media that we used, which tended to be the Guardian, the Observer and the Sunday Times, a telegraph and a few others. But we couldn't advertise in them too much, or it reduced the response on DH. Rip came back from a trip to southern India and said, Oh, by the way, I've just agreed to take on two things a new project, Rural Development Trust and under sedation, he said. I've got 2000 cases histories in my bag. We've gotto get them sponsored

spk_1:   17:30
and pretty quickly. And he gathered the case. History says

spk_0:   17:33
that they have been done by then. He supervised the at that time, the production to meet the marketing and communications man. The production of case histories was a major's logistical challenge. Andi, I think we went through a wall, a variety of issues in terms of we did some very brave things. We consciously improved the advertising messaging even though we knew it would reduce. They cost her reply. We could do that because our marketing is very strong. But I also think we were driven by a desire being reversed by still in their twenties. And we were both very idealistic, just tipped enjoy thirties at this time. But we were always looking for the next break through. You know, press advertising was in decline. Costs were going up. Cost of acquisitions Certainly we're going up. Competition was increasing on DH. One day printer came to see me. His name was Derek Locator on DH. He said, I want to show you something. It's a completely revolutionary format. You'll never have seen anything like it. And he was right. And of course I'd come from publishing and I was interested in shapes and formats and what you could do by folding paper. And he said, We're using new Web offset print technology. Where you on DH finishing unit to the end of the print, the printing machines or where the printed pages come off the end of the machine. That is a gadget which perforate glues, applies glue like an ink folds on trims. So we conform. Envelopes on a leaflet on what he showed me was a leaflet promoting an investment seminar in Hong Kong. On on the fore edge of page three, the paper had been folded in on DH. A perfect envelope with a ready perforated reply for the envelope was already damned on DH perforated for easy folding. You just had you had the four page leaflet in your hand, you detached it and it was gunned ready on DH two. The only problem with this is that we can only print it in America on there's only one machine in the world, does it? Ana? I said I think I might want that on DH. It just so happened that I knew that the Observer was had been talking to us about having a loose in searching the observant. They'd never had a loose insert, But this opportunity was there. But it was gonna cost so much more than a traditional whole page ad that I couldn't really justify it until I saw this. And I saw that with a ready folded, partially completed reply form, this could work. So I said The only problem is I'm going to need 1.2 million if he used to go into the Observer. But I said, First of all, we need 50,000 to test. It was printed in New Jersey. I had to fly over to see it happening on DH. The thing wass that the test supply had to be put on our on the aeroplane had to be flown into the observer could test 50,000. And if it hadn't worked, the other 1.2 million were coming on a boat have bobbing over the sea as the as the test was being conducted on. If it hadn't worked, I would still be hand delivering those leaflets through the letterbox Britain.

spk_1:   21:37
Was that the plan? If it didn't go, you

spk_0:   21:39
get. I just had my I just would have had to because the cost of it. But that worked. I would have been in such a lot of trouble. But as this print read was leaving, I something occurred to me and I thought, This is extraordinary. And I said to him as he was just he was going out the door. I

spk_1:   21:58
said, Why have you come and showing this to me. Piddling little action aid. We were still

spk_0:   22:03
a tiny organisation. Then we would know, you know, one of the top vintage realities. There we were, number 160 something and he turned to me and I will never ever forget Hey said, I'll tell you why I'm showing it to you because you're the only person who's given me a hearing. Well, nobody else but everybody else was too busy. Nobody else would give me the time of day. And I thought those poor fools inner too busy to look at what was a marketing breakthrough. We won the award that year. We won the best. My first BD enables Straight Marketing Association Award We got and Grant from the post office because it was so revolutionary. The late the woman who run our post room at ActionAid got me a beauty because the first day that the coupons came in, there were seven on guy saw shit. You know, this is terrible on DH. I thought in the name of the next day, they have got to be really, you know, be night. I think that was a Monday going on Sunday on my ranking LAPD freshmen couldn't wait. You know, soon she can end. I was on the phone. L see. What's The result is very similar to yesterday, and I saw one there and said yesterday there were five. The day that our 500

spk_1:   23:38
55 you could relax,

spk_0:   23:43
I knew I was on a winner. That first promotion it was worth about two million paints on it won every award going on. And before long the lifeboats were using similar things. Every someone's using them all. Everybody was copping Z technology. British companies started importing the technology and doing the same kind of online finishing. It became known. But we were so far ahead of the game that we that made a huge difference. And suddenly we were recruiting.

spk_1:   24:17
What about the messaging you were using? What? What were you doing in the ads? What we're doing on the on those incidents? What images? What the course theaux action like I kinda

spk_0:   24:27
wish I had the experience I have now at that time because I think what we were doing was evolving a storytelling approach on. We had I had a very effective method of quieting supporters, but as I said. We stopped using it because we were uncomfortable, that it wasn't quite. I'm telling the whole truth. So we started telling the stony off the individual Children and the impact that actually could have in their community if the's Children had not just the chance to go to school, but the opportunity to get involved in community based projects. We were digging Wells and many of our programme countries. We were you know, we were looking at a holistic community based development projects which were funded long term through the child sponsorship mechanism on DH, the best people to tell those storeys where the young people themselves so creatively that allowed us enormous scope. But when the inserts came along, we had four effectively for a four pages, we did expand lots of smaller formats. We were producing millions and millions tens of millions of inserts each year on DH. You know, in time that two declined. Acquisition costs from insects didn't survive and then along came direct mail. But I still think that the messaging that we had, which was basically about you and the difference you can make to the life of somebody, is not the faces faces millions. It's one real individual who has a storey has a history as a family on DH. Who? You, Khun? Imagine you can learn about him, Really? That with all the donors wanted to know and people were, you know, they they were flooding in to sign up.

spk_1:   26:40
If we look at some of those early adds, it looks like you were toying with what you called sponsorship. There was obviously there. Will you be my poster parent things?

spk_0:   26:49
But that was the ad that we changed because we felt it was offering relationship that we couldn't. Okay, so we dropped two postal payment.

spk_1:   26:57
But that was the very early work. Was it

spk_0:   26:59
that would that actually, that headline was in existence when I joined the action in distress. That was the headline that was still costing 24 hours in the religious press. So I initially used it. But Rip and I, we worked very closely. We had because we had so many people trying to split us up. It kind of forced us. Teo, remember we made a pact in his back garden in his flat in Islington, and way swore that we would stick together. Come hell or high water on. We re stuck with that ActionAid in those days, I think was the cutting edge of direct marketing recruitment. So it was a great training ground for me. Andi gave me lots and lots of anecdotes when I actually came to start at my agency, and I then had been working for dozens of different organisations from Greenpeace, Amnesty Lifeboats, National Trust, Enos PCC, UNICEF. We had most of their best of causes and land, and almost all of them had been informed through the fact that a I am being a fundraising director on B. I had that experience with ActionAid of very effective supporter recruitment. But during that 18 and 1/2 years of highly successful urban sss, it's Amy bought eight release. I brought out relationship fundraising on these other books and be, you know, we were I think, you know, things like the institute conference started on DH. The Holland Southeast sighted on DH are people formed a lot of the kind of the faculty of those events in the early days. I think we have a lot of influence. I've worked with Greenpeace in Vienna in starting face to face fundraising as it became known. And in fact, we consciously at the Greenpeace skill share so shared invited head of fundraising from amnesty and other charities to come. Listen and you know, yeah, we shared it. But what is hard now to kind of think off is that in the early days people queued up to talk to Greenpeace. And when professional fundraising took the same proposition to Brighton, which was the first place that we tested it, people were queuing up in the streets of Brighton to talk to Greenpeace on It was it was a joy. It was, you know, it was a pleasure to talk to these energised, enthusiastic young people about the cause of the time of the green wave of theeighty about the nineties. And, you know, people thought it was something well worth supporting. And I think what's happened is that fundraisers have killed to go goose by over fishing in the pond by by a foolish method of remuneration. I mean, one thing that struck me throughout my time in the charity sector, which is quite long by comparison to most people, is the number of false economies that you get in. You know in fundraising. One of those, I think, was the briefing that we will pay by results on which is entirely different from the way and agencies were remunerated for producing direct mail pranks. We were given a budget for the pack, and we were basically briefed to come up with the most original creative in a bit of an effective pack on DH with face to face. It's all about everybody looking the same, sounding the same lowest common denominator. Give your spiel and move on nothing. Teo, effectively distinguish one cause from the other, which I think is

spk_1:   31:22
I think that was one of the problems that I've highlighted from from from that period. What fundraising really concentrated on was, rather than trying to find people who had a Connexion with the cause, was really finding people who struggled to say no, that's right, Yeah,

spk_0:   31:42
I started going to America in the early nineties on DH. That was a lot of the inspiration for a relationship fundraising because they were focusing on the money that was coming in and not the people who were sending it on. It was all about short term quick hits persuasion on DH persuasion to the point ofthe pressure on DH, you know, I mean, I have to say, having run a marketing agency for 20 years, I've never met a donor who wanted a charity to market at dawn on DH. I honestly that particularly in the legacy, saying, I think the whole no main mature, that we use his role, you know, to talk about legacy market. And I think it's deeply offensive on DH yet you know, I believe we're in the inspired inspiration business. I think we've got the best storeys in the world to tell him we got the best of reasons for telling them that the skill of the fundraiser is to tell their storeys whose passion will move people to action, you know, therefore we need we need a whole different skill fact from what we are actually inducing people into throughout organisations nowadays on the thing that bugs me is that unquestionably I've had a success through changing the kind of the conversation at conferences so people talk about being donor focused on relationship fundraising. Donor can be don't lead conferences, but then in the organisations they don't actually do that, which I think is Ah, a fault of leadership. Andi. Think we saw the price You could pay for that through the three years of sustained, vitriolic on DH justifiable, inaccurate, sloppy, appalling reporting from the daily mail in the family and many other media to absolutely horrendous, but actually entirely justified in terms of what they're there for. We provided a study. They planted people into our call centres and our mail rooms and onto our street teams on DH. They simply reported the cut throat practise band practise bad fundraising that actually you hear about now at the dinner tables around their country because the mail and they're like gave permission to be critical of charities in a way that existed before. You know, I I was asked by in CEO at the time of the gathering to report to be a spoke patient. You were, too, because they told me you were outside asking my Phillips to do this, and I find myself on Victoria Darwish, and I remember saying most fundraising in Britain is exemplary, but I didn't want people to be slagging this business, But I've often wondered if I could actually justify that claim that most fundraising is exemplary. I think there's a lot of exemplary fundraising goes on in Britain, but I still worry. I feel that the warning, the colossal, very timely and very saving grace off a warning that within those hostile editorials, I don't think we've picked up in their phone, and I don't think we fell. I don't think we've addressed that properly. So we started that through the Commission on the Donor Experience, the Institute of Fundraising is taking that forward through the supports of Experience Project just beginning to gain traction. So much so that the institute produced a report with Price Waterhouse Cooper last September, just a couple months ago, in which they said that building relationships with supporters and delivering a good customer experience is now the primary focus off the majority of British charities. And I thought, Blind me, blow me down and I've just been banging the straight. You've been banging this drum for 20 years of war, you know, on here. Suddenly it's arrived, you know, this is

spk_1:   36:20
in a way, this

spk_0:   36:21
is evolution. I do believe our sector evolves on. I think if you look at different definitions of fundraising, I have three that I quote, which is from Webster's Dictionary in the seventies from relationship fundraising in the nineties. The 19 nineties on DH from Craig Clinton's and Goldstein's book in 27 t on the definition of fundraising is actually quite instructive because it shows you how sector since on, I think we are constantly evolving. I'm just not sure where we're going next on. The reason for that is but the issue really that we have to dress his trusted confidence because that are a 1,000,000 reasons for giving to charity. But they're all rooted trust and confidence, Onda. All the measures indicate that trust and confidence took a big knock in 2015 and sustained knocks over that period, and we've no quite backto if you put all the studies since that would not go back to where we were. I believe there's for tile grand. There's that there's a model high ground that we could be taking, but I really worry about what's happening in our political life when you look at what what people do with the truth in politics and what they get away with now that they could never have got away with 10 20 years ago, 10 years ago, Maybe, but no, you know, and we just need to look at our political leadership on that's not a party thing. I mean, I don't have a party issue here. I just think standards in public life of Don completely down the toilet on DH, we can gain a commercial advantage by being above that by being better than that. People expect us to be better than that because we are noble causes. They like to believe they want. They absolutely have to believe in this. And if they don't, if we adopt the same kind of moral vacuum, it doesn't matter. I've just got to get my target come what may die in a ditch if we adopt that we're stuffed on. But that's I think needs to be our focus, a sector. But I worry about leadership.

spk_1:   38:57
The Sirius is looking is very much looking. Why people give, what do you thought some why,

spk_0:   39:01
why people go. Yeah, I think I think you know, there's a saying that people give to need which the Kerala re to. That is that people need to give on DH. I do think people need to give. I think when we see something that's wrong, we need to give whether it's somebody you sleeping rough on the streets, coming up to you at night and saying, Listen, I've got nowhere to go or on Earth, Quake in the pole or whatever I think we we need to give but fundamental toe that we need to believe that it's worth supporting and that it's a worthwhile good cause. I mean, I think fundraising that the brilliance of fundraising, what is absolutely brilliant is when we can define a cause which people will believe in, that they will almost rejoicing because they can see what a difference it makes. I think people need to believe my giving whatever it is will make a difference for someone, which is why things like trance, sponsorship or anything that directly connects the needy with the donation. That's why that's why it works so well. So, But I think you have toe onto that belief in the cause sustainable, ongoing cause that people compassionately believe him. I think you got toe onto that. The support of experience. If giving is a good experience, people will do more of it if it's not a good experience, or soon stop. And this the basis of relationship. It's the basis of relationship fundraising. It's even Maur the basis of the support of expedience project. What happens if you have that you have the cause, and if you have the experience, that's good on the cause that you can believe in. Then you can rely on donors through the magic of averages. You know the fact that if you have a body of donors, they will provide your calls with a dependable, consistent, reliable source of income through second thin that will sustain you and your colleagues in the urgent change the world work that you're doing. That's what fundraising should be perceived us on. But we don't. We see it in terms of asking people for money. Who can I stop today on our server money? I'm probably because the belief is fairly persistent, probably because, as we saw just coming here today, nice people, young guys stopping me on the street, you're gonna be polite. They're going to be nice. I've always thought that people who do face to face fundraising lovely people, they're lovely, so nice so that people will give the money, but it's no you know, as high consumption used to say, fundraising is it's not about asking from any to start by asking for money, you won't deserve it. Mostly you won't get it. It's about work that needs doing on its euro in making that difference. And so I you know, I always say, I think we're within the inspiration business, not the asking. Andi, we need to get. I think I better fundraising is communication any organisation and I say this. I hope there are some people listening in on organisation. If you had in an organisation that has your communications department separate from your fundraising department, you are kind of doing something because you can't separate fundraising from communication. And if you have been sighted and two different departments under two different lists of leaders, you're going to go. Role here is really gonna go roll. Communication is friendly thing, and in my view, it's about the truth told, Well, that's our job. We're professional storytellers. When I look back on my career, all I've ever done all my life is tell studies and you know, I see myself as I don't see myself as a director or a managing director and chief executive or whatever. I see myself as a copywriter. I'm a state

spk_1:   43:36
on what campaigns have you. Have you worked on that? You think best demonstrate. We've been speaking like a child sponsorship where it's your joining a child on the journey. You know, those eight and 1/2 years a fernet then

spk_0:   43:53
afterwards. But I actually have the privilege of working with more than 300 different organisations, and many of them I admire furiously for many years, worked with Greenpeace. I've done lots of very, very great good campaigns with Greenpeace Han Dynasty to I Mean Burnett Associates produced the famous Amnesty Penn Pack, which, which was a pact that launched 1000 copycats on which endured for at least 15 years as Amnesty's Banker Pack Book Aid, which was the reverse book clam, which was after a brief time on their board, during which I decided I couldn't actually be very helpful to them. My parting gift to them was the thing called the virus book Tramp on DH. A very short time Afterwards, Clive Network from the director the bouquet took me out to lunch and said, actually, the respite clappers saved brocade and we couldn't think dominated on. In fact, that continues today and from every so often I get invited to a really great event, and it's It's quite endearing because the best book club goes on and it produces a very good source of income for them. So I Bolton Village is probably one of the campaigns that I am most proud of because that was so transformational on that button. Became one of the two organisations in my life who have actually come to me and said, We're raising so much money, you have to stop way. We're doing so well.

spk_1:   45:37
Who was the other

spk_0:   45:38
Royal National lifeboat? Okay, on DH, that's another storey on. But funnily enough, I think Barton were successful because they were greater fundraising. Really great. Our new ally. We're successful for differently

spk_1:   45:57
but but village? Because I'm gonna put some of these ideas on the blood post. So the bottom village campaign was the large brown sheet of paper that you followed,

spk_0:   46:07
You know, that's right. Going wrong Village. I'm ways I'm very proud of Right guard. Absolutely sorry. I've got lots of villages. That was a community for adults with mental handicap. What they did was they were the first people to give donors choices. So they produced a reply form which had, on the back the normal heading turned through foot through 90 degrees. Normally, it says how you can help but village. But the bottom village, one said had bottom village can help you, and it gave you seven options and the last of those wass take me off your mailing lists. I never want to hear from you again, but it basically gave people the chance to hear less gave them. It was it was an opt out opportunity which most people didn't take. But a very, very large number of donors nearly half take the box to here just once a year on people thought this and I presented this at the Institute of Fundraising was an outrageous thing to suggest that you give people the chance to hear from you fewer times I less often on DH. It wasn't such a dangerous thing to do because bottom was fairly good with its data. And this was in the 19 eighties way. Were data lead on Fantastic at it. Andi, we could tell that a very large number if I don't There's only give once a year, and they consciously deliberately decided that they gave once a year. So we gave them the opportunity to hear just have one appeal a year. They could get the newsletters right year, but they would only get one appeals when we did it. We've done it. We did it for years. I mean, Jackie Fowler was still doing it a couple years ago, so this went on for over 30 years. We were getting a better response from that group of people by making them once a year than we had when we mailed four times a year on. We were saving paper and print and all of that on. We had happy committed donors. We were getting over consistently over 50% from warm donors. That was good stuff.

spk_1:   48:30
And what percentage is that? I never want to hear from you again.

spk_0:   48:34
Very, very few have you 5%. I wouldn't like to say Mark. I mean, a long time ago, I I went up to Bolton Village when we started. Interestingly, Lawrence strayed from bottom village, was one of the people who attended that conference of George's. He was waiting at the end of a long queue of people to talk to me, he said. You got slight, No place on earth. We've never seen anything like it. And I went up and I stole this community for adults with mental handicap, and that was falling apart. The roofs were leaking. There were three people, three people to a room. They had no space that nothing. We we turned it into one of the most successful fundraising campaigns of all time. I still was invaded up to, but as an honoured guest, each year's and I would walk around beautiful North Yorkshire bails Andi. I would pass the word went, award winning church that the donations have provided the Cree Marie, the bakery, all the wonderful new houses which were produced to the highest standard that you possibly could. Everything the infrastructure, that candle workshop, the rules were everything was done to the highest possible degree because of great fundraising. And, of course, what the village did was they told storeys to their donors. What donors do they send more money? I had people would come and coach loads to visit Bolton Village. They were made very welcome because we knew that if they visited the village one arrest for life but the right guidance packed that you talked about that was very good, because that was a really creative simplicity. The art was recycling the mailing pack rather than throwing it been, you could recycle it and use it in your garden

spk_1:   50:26
because that was it was it was it was easing seaports

spk_0:   50:29
on DH. We got something like 10 times the response that we expect

spk_1:   50:35
with this from a warm list. Or was it was it was it will

spk_0:   50:40
actually know the initial sending of it was two members ofthe right gardens was the Henry double day research intern govern tree. And they were all people who hated junk mail. Indeed. And they said, I love this because I've been using on DH. It was fantastic on DH. It was used in a variety of forms after that,

spk_1:   51:02
but I think the point is you've got a point of Connexion. You know, we when we do research now, we often if we're giving people packs, we will give them two or three very similar packs. A blue folk style Pakis. I'm really trying to give that inside track its not looks like it's been heavily printed and processed on DH. If we had one of those packs to somebody, for example, there was a study we did recently and we handed it to a woman and it was about Children. Was a Save the Children back and she saw, Look at this. You know, people get too much money and look for this fake advertising and I'm not interested. And then we handed her an animal pack, taking the very same approach. I love this Look, Look at the picture of the animal. Same approach. But she had no Connexion with the Children's calls in every connexion with the animals on the right and gardens. One obviously that was

spk_0:   52:00
right. Right. Well, this is it. Really You? Yeah, in fact. And that was very, very, very, very good point. I must tell you, before we move off campaigns I have seen in the last over the last two years working with one of the best case histories, I think that I've had the privilege of working on for wonderful national use Orchestra on DH. I wouldn't say too much about it, but he

spk_1:   52:24
is not an easy geek. just cuz Gate keeping to the terms of

spk_0:   52:28
the bet, but a beautiful, beautiful calls that just needed to believe in itself on DH. The results that we have had basically on what was a long term donor acquisition investment. It's an investment that has paid off more than broken even within two years. When initial predictions where five years And it's just one. The Institute of Fundraising Support Your experience Award S O. You know it is possible even in my time of life is impossible. It's possible to produce still break the mould and come up with great

spk_1:   53:11
What was what was the breakthrough from the National Youth Orchestra? Why, Why would somebody want to give?

spk_0:   53:17
Well, I don't play a musical instrument. I tried to play the saxophone once. I love music. I love Thin Lizzy and Bruce Springsteen, but I also love classical music. I I had to say to trustees International Youth Orchestra, you know what's not to love? You fit in the auditorium of the Royal, our whole or the festival hall, and you see, before you 168 people nobody younger than 14 nobody over than 18. They're playing their hearts site. Their talent is extraordinary. Their commitment that enthusiasm, sheer joy off creating they come together in the sense of achievement is palpable. You cannot be there and fail to be moved. What's not to love? And sure enough, we told the Storey in the direct mail letter in a standard thing window envelope and all that and sent it out. People are writing back thing, the state of music education in this country's

spk_1:   54:29
terrible sad ass. The need Well, it is the need.

spk_0:   54:33
But it's also, you know, we get letters, which is so great they say you must be so proud of what you do because you bring this beauty alive on DH. People love to celebrate achievement, and that is, for young people, the joy off the opportunity. I have some there so often I wished I was that age, and I wished I had that chance to play in that orchestra. My goodness, me, I would give an arm and a leg to be able to do that, Brother, I wouldn't be able to play the violin. So

spk_1:   55:09
they say that there's perhaps some sort of surrogate Ken Burnett sitting there on Officer Baxter. You're

spk_0:   55:16
who I will Vic alias Li live through? Yeah, absolutely. I love it on DH. It's shown me that I'm no entirely jaded now, in terms of what can happen. Everybody has been saying post GDP are direct. Mail is dead and all that. Elizabeth Denham, the information commissioner, did confess to me first of all, that they were not demanding consent on the direct mail. Can be running additional interest on DH. That didn't surprise me at all, because I am old enough to remember back in 1998 the Data Protection Act. Exactly the same thing happened with direct mail will be dead because they're demanding consent. They weren't demanding consent, Never where Elizabeth then and said to me, I have no interest in causing charities problems. They're stopping them from doing what they do so well, it's not, You know, if you abuse data, I'll be after you. But I'm not about stopping you doing the right thing by your donors on. That's all we do.

spk_1:   56:25
But that message didn't really get through. We My experience was at that point a lot of people terrified. I don't want their call from the Daily Mail. Perhaps more frightening than I took. What the after

spk_0:   56:38
Samar. I was ashamed off our profession at that time because people were putting I fresh realised this when I saw the country that Victoria Derbyshire was putting under me, which was former director of ActionAid, former director of fundraising. ActionAid and I had to say to them that was 1984. This is 2016 Andre said. Well, we can't get anybody from the charity sector who's brave enough to be camp. And that's why I think guys like Jeremy Hughes from Alzheimer's societies, you know, they're so great because they prepared. I know nobody wants to be exposed in the in the Daily mail, but we we should not be. If if we're not prepared to stand up on described what we do, we shouldn't be doing it. The

spk_1:   57:28
problem is, you will get lied about. You know, I've had experience of this. I've had lies told about me, yeah, in the press, and the fear is what they're going to say on whether that would be believed. Well, I know that's true

spk_0:   57:46
and and I know that's difficult and it's easy for me to say it, but you know, I think you have to stand up and say it because A. I think people will be inspired and impressive when you do that on B. If we can't stand that for ourselves and say what we believe, you know, we were people testifying toe Commons Select Committee, saying You know, we never knew it was going on. This was all the fault of iris suppliers. You know, I'm sorry, but that is bollocks. It's not acceptable for any fundraiser to blame a supplier for practises. When they dictate the terms they pay the bill, they commission the supplier on DH, you know, I mean that are hauling examples off things going wrong and supplier organisations, and it's because the charity was not in the driving seat is the client. A man is unforgivable, but to then blame it on the supply and agencies. At that point, I was ashamed of our sect.

spk_1:   58:56
Do you think things are better now? I think

spk_0:   59:00
the seeds off I mean, I was ever so primed off our sectors eventual response through the commission on the donor expedience, we had nearly 2000 volunteers got involved in that project, including himself, in a very significant way, But I think people think the problem is over, and it's not. I think, the issues that we identified like in every instance that was reported accurately as bad practise there was an absence of integrity. So some of the basic principles I wrote, probably the biggest, most difficult writing job I ever had was to try and distil the essence of the 28 projects into a six page document, which is called a six piece. I think Dutch fundraisers would have read that document more than British fundraisers, but that's just because I just think we lack the leadership that sends to people. You must read this because you've got to know this because you are the people who are goingto saves the future of fundraise.

spk_1:   1:0:02
And that is also you will get to download that from the blood post attached to this

spk_0:   1:0:08
wonderful, wonderful I mean, it's all it's bean on Sophie. It's all there on DH. I think people should should use it. But one of the six p's document give me if I probably can't remember a cover. Its purpose principles, pillars of change promised the donors, and so anyone that there are six of them, but the principles that fundraising has to be built home, I think, are absolutely fundamental. Realist seven of them in that document on DH. To me, the most important is integrity. We can't do what we're doing, you know, which is why our political leadership is so bereft at the moment. Because clearly principles don't no matter for anything that may be truth right society. And if it is, then I believe there's no hope for fundraising. If we collectively get together on DH, change this and I think there's a perfect vehicle through the Institute of Fundraising on the support of Experience project. Then we can we can actually gain some moral high ground and make a real difference. But I don't think that, you know, I think we as a sector replaced passion with artifice. That was something which was evident through the the reporting in that difficult time on DH, we need Teo. We need to really get into our DNA. We need to have in our d n a. That which makes us different from other foreign people who sell subscriptions to magazines of washing, washing machines. Cars are you know, we're no in that business. It's a different. It's a different thing

spk_1:   1:2:00
that one of the things that we're finding at the moment in terms of within within research, that so many commercial organisations of commercial products are starting to get involved in charitable activity.

spk_0:   1:2:13
But they're wearing our clothes.

spk_1:   1:2:14
Why not? Well, Patagonia, for example, is exactly that. You know, when you buy Patagonia, you are actively going out and you are protecting the wild words

spk_0:   1:2:24
and they're doing it better than we do it.

spk_1:   1:2:27
And it's now so easy to go and buy ethical products as it were, which is growing a rapid, rapid rate. Good stuff. Worse, the fundraising sector flat for at least a decade. Maybe a lot more

spk_0:   1:2:39
notice really flat on DH. One of the reasons for that is there cock eyed view that we have about investment. So we see everything is cost, not investment. So people are not investing in developing the kind of messaging way make mistakes that the commercial sector we just find laughable would just just come. You can get its head dry white wine, and it's because it's because our organisations were so used to keeping head Stein. We're so wedded Teo. Short term thinking We're so imbued in false economies. People don't understand the economics of investing in fundraising. Why is it that every Chalit ian the land as investments in stocks and shares, which, if you look over the last 15 10 15 years have performed really rather abysmally and you look at what you could get by investing in fundraising? I mean, look at the graph that lovely National Youth Orchestra can produce and you know, you're looking at 30 40% returns on investment.

spk_1:   1:3:53
Why our is our

spk_0:   1:3:55
charity sector on the way out of that and it's criminally unaware

spk_1:   1:4:01
it's the security of money in the bank. Really? You know, you think Oh, the investments

spk_0:   1:4:05
can go up as well as down, you know, Does anyone who know your Woodford well, No.

spk_1:   1:4:10
Well, not when you invest in something very, very safe. No growth and not much chance of loss,

spk_0:   1:4:15
though. Well, that's right. And that's it, you know, add. So I just think of the entrepreneurial spirit Khomeni Revolutions in Human initiative happened because somebody said, Well, I don't want anything to go wrong, you know?

spk_1:   1:4:34
I mean, it's laughable. It's actually shameful. So if you look back at the start of your career. What? When? When? When did you start fundraising? What year?

spk_0:   1:4:45
77. You left a left school at 16. In 1960? So

spk_1:   1:4:53
you, you, you, about a decade of business. You start in 77. What is different now? Some 40 years later. Tio, what was happening there? Because when you say that this chap who had this innovation, nobody, nobody listened to him. You know, I say, if you had that innovation to that, no one's gonna listen

spk_0:   1:5:14
to, you know? I know. I know. This is the This is a tragedy. And, you know, I do feel 43 or 44 years later, I feel them, you know, quite a sense of failure. I think lots of things have improved. I think we are a professional. Um but I don't feel we've replaced the passion and integrity. I think we people come into fundraising is a deliberate choice. In my era, it was almost accidental. People who inhabited fundraising then work in a current blimp. Characters who had left the army and couldn't weren't fit for anything. So let's run a charity good chap in the city on all that, never plenty of them around, and I don't think that's true now. I do think we have some of the best people I love the fact that we are 70% female fundraising profession, but not when you get up to the management levels. And I think that's wrong. So applaud the examples off. We're working on this whole diversity debate my great achievement. When I was chaired of trustees at ActionAid Wass, I was the last in a long line of white, privileged male chairs of trustees of my successor, wass Ugandan woman, and she turned out to be one of the most brilliant chairs. That accident could have had dr noting calibre on DH that I think about that time when you Saturday the ActionAid board. There were people from India, from Guatemala, from Malawi, from Uganda, from Thailand, from Brazil, you know, it was a very diverse on 50% gender balanced s So you know, I think I think that can happen now that will like that will happen. No, these things are better. But what what is Mia's? We don't retain people so we can attract people, but we don't know why I go to these lengths under nobody. There's nobody around connected with ActionAid Name. Be anything like as long as me. And you know, I sometimes wonder where did I go wrong? What my, What am I doing?

spk_1:   1:7:44
You know, I think this business I am I still

spk_0:   1:7:47
here, nobody else's. But you know, I to me that's the next big frontier is keep keep the good people. I think that a lot of people in fundraising who might be better to think of a different kind of job because of their approach because of their lack of empathy, lack of integrity, the lack of passion, their lack of belief and they might be better to get a job doing something else. But I think what's tragic and we saw a lot of this at the time of the whole of Cook study. What's tragic is when we lose really good people who could make a difference in this sector. They don't hang around because for one reason now that it's not right, and I think I'm not gonna go into the reasons now, but I think very good. If we could address

spk_1:   1:8:38
and where do you think the profession is headed over the next 10 15 years, which is gonna be possibly a very difficult time for the country is Well, it

spk_0:   1:8:50
is, well, Brexit to No, I think we'll implode. I think, actually, the country will implode in on itself like a black hole. The waves will flap over that. That will be a people.

spk_1:   1:9:03
It was a test.

spk_0:   1:9:06
No, I am. I think that I think either the support you'll experience project will work or or it won't. Andi, I think I can guarantee mark that in 25 years time when I'm pushing up daisies, you will be having to come back to tell people about the basics of their trade. And you'll be saying to them, For God's sake, Why you beginning? Likely increasingly ca magically recently grantee. Why don't you know what your history is, Where you've come from, how we got to be where we are, why we do things that we do, what we do them in a way that we do them. I think that's my view of the future. I think if we get the support of experience right, the future could be very rosy, because I do think that is moral high ground we could take. I feel we should, you know, people say at a dinner party or I'm a fundraiser than you can clear a room with that. Whereas I think you know, I wrote that in relationship fundraising 1992 you begin to get, like, a broken record on. We should be able to say, You know what I do fuels voluntary action. We're making a difference every day on we're changing the world for the better. I you know, I just I think for that to happen, we will need to recognise that we need something of a culture change and I think the people who will make that culture change. I hope they're the kind of people is listening to podcasts like this, but I'm not sure, but they're probably, you know, in their thirties are no my shoulder or even younger on DH. If they're given enough support, if they're given the right leadership, then I think there's no end to what they could do.

spk_1:   1:11:10
And so leadership role. Do you think in this period what do you think it is in terms of how should empower? How should it direct hashed it lead. I

spk_0:   1:11:21
think most leaders that I know, and I know quite a few when unearth some very well. I would respectfully suggest need to revisit so much of their homework and not assume just because they've been around awhile that they know it all. And I'm still learning every day. I started Sophie because I wanted to share some of that knowledge. I've put much of the last 12 years into animate that comprehensive, effective on DH. Keep it free, thanks to people like yourself on DH. It saddens me when I talk to people and I find how little they know about not just where they are and where they're going. But where they come from on DH, I hope that will change

spk_1:   1:12:22
the way we tend to find. You know, obviously, people are different to people 40 50 6100 years ago. But there are so many things that are exactly the sound booth in terms of the relationship. What we want to achieve their needs are exactly the same. You could go back and you can read newspapers 100 years old. You say exactly the same problems being dealt women exactly

spk_0:   1:12:45
the same I spend a lot of time talking to George Smith and Reba Nate. They keep reminding me that this has been said before on The thing is, you've got to say it again. You got a sense in perhaps a slightly different way, and you just keep saying it.

spk_1:   1:13:03
So advice for that fundraiser, the start of their career. What would you thank him if

spk_0:   1:13:11
you get it right. You can really, really do very, very well in this business if you want to make a difference. If you genuinely want to change the world, this is where to direct your energies. But don't do it by imagining your job is to pursue money. Do it by believing that your job is to make people feel so great about what you're enabling them to do. That they will want to do it. And I want to tell their friends abated on DH. They will generate a wave on that. We've seen this several times. I mean, in the 19 eighties, there was what became known as the Green Wave, which was basically what launched a sustained Greenpeace on DH. It was a phenomenal time to be working with environmental causes I've seen some of this in international development. I think international development is a very rough time of late. I would like to see people you know who are the most modern day heroes. They're the people who are I'm gonna go and that means, you know, less. They're lovely, Greater turn birds. You know, I just think that air probably 1000 role model. I want to capture the storeys of those role models on this Sophie world changes at work section so that we can show people you could be like this. This is the difference that you could make. I think I think people need to accept. You know, it's it's not about how much by the UK making home went to a pension. You can make him what this car company car you'll get. It is actually doing something worth doing. If you talk to university students, they will totally agree with that. So why don't we try and capture it at the moment, we we try and ate the commercial sector. We failed badly. That's it. Why don't why not be the change the world sector?

spk_1:   1:15:18
I think it's a very good point on which to close. Why don't you be the changing world set? Why don't we? Indeed, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. I'm sorry. I talk too much as always, but it's because it's been a great joy. Thank you. Don't forget. You can read Maura about the ins and outs of fundraising at queer ideas dot co dot UK or wonder overto blue frog London dot com. Thank you for listening. So why people give studio?