Reconciling Feminism and Faith with Meghan Tschanz

• How it’s possible, within a faith-based context, to validate and connect with others who have different beliefs and heal divisions. 
• Why asking questions should be an integral part of faith systems and why that scares the patriarchy. 
• Hear about the shocking realization that illuminated the misogynistic and abusive behavior of the pastors Meghan grew up with. 
• Ways we can become aware of what oppressive systems we may be unknowingly upholding. 
• How to give yourself grace for what you didn’t know and mistakes you may have made.  

Meghan Tschanz is the author of Women Rising and the host of the well-loved Faith and Feminism podcast. After growing up in the conservative evangelical church, she came to a reckoning with her upbringing while serving as a missionary working with exploited women. Since then, she has been set on dismantling harmful systems within (our) faith. She and her husband live with their little girl and two rescue dogs in Athens, Georgia.

Meghan's Website: https://www.meghantschanz.com/

Meghan's Book, Women Rising: Find it here

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*Music by Sam Murphy*
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Transcript

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Jessica Hornstein: Hi everyone. I'm Jessica Hornstein. Welcome to the No, Not Crazy Podcast where we explore the invalidating messages we internalize, their effects on our lives, and the ways we can free ourselves from them. We've all had those experiences that make us question ourselves and even sometimes feel a little crazy.

Let's stop accepting the idea that there is something inherently wrong with us and begin to appreciate that actually there is something fundamentally right. So, join me and, together, we can all feel a little less crazy.

Today, I am here with Megan Tschanz.  Megan Tschanz is the author of Women Rising and the host of the well-loved Faith and Feminism podcast. After growing up in the conservative Evangelical church, she came to a reckoning with her upbringing while serving as a missionary working with exploited women. Since then, she has been set on dismantling harmful systems within the Christian faith. She and her husband live with their little girl and two rescue dogs in Athens, Georgia.

Welcome, Meghan. 

Meghan Tschanz: Thanks for having me. 

Jessica Hornstein: So, so good to meet you. I've been following your work on Instagram for a while and just, you know, have found it so compelling and so relevant, I think, to so many aspects of society right now. I know your focus is grappling with the patriarchy in Christianity, but it certainly, you know, we, we are grappling with the patriarchy in a lot of areas of our society. So, I think it really is critically important and has a lot of applications. 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. That's why we're here. So maybe give us a little bit about your background first and how you, how you ended up here.

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah. So, I was raised in the conservative Evangelical church. Well, at least I went, like my, my parents got divorced when I was really young, and so my dad brought us.

Um, but like right from the get-go, I knew, I mean, I should have known that it wasn't a safe place for women because, right off the, you know, the bat, my mother wasn't accepted cuz she was divorced, but my father was.

And so, I saw the church kind of embrace my father and reject my mother. And I, I remember my mom talking to me about it and getting frustrated, but I was, I don't know, like six. And so, I like, I didn't know necessarily the difference but then I started getting raised with the idea that women and girls were less than.

So, a lot of, uh, the teachings I got was, girls need to be covered up in the pool where the boys could wear whatever they want. we got purity teachings really young. I was like 11 when they started talking to me about like, you, you know, you can't tempt men into whatever into like lust and you need to keep covered up.

And they gave object lessons like girls and women are like flowers. And each time if they do something sexual, they lose a petal and they won't be worth anything to anyone, if they lose too many petals. And signing a purity pledge when I was like 13 and, and all of this was happening when like the boys were like plain laser tag or something.

It just very much in my context, one-sided. And then also being told basically my whole identity as a girl was to serve men in my life. And, um, that was my father, to be under his headship, to eventually be under a husband's headship. And all of it sat really wrong with me. I've always been pretty opinionated, outspoken, competitive, uh, all of these traits that I was told I shouldn't be as a girl.

And so, from the beginning, it sat wrong with me. And I also had this like juxtaposition where in school, like I wasn't told I had to be less. In fact, I was told to achieve and, accomplish things and I'd go back to church, and it was kind of like, well, you're gonna be a wife and a mother one day. And that's kind of your role. And so, this was kind of the, the, what I grew up with. Um, in the beginning, I did speak out against it, but then I quickly learned the consequences of using my voice. And, for a while there, learned that acceptance was more important than me asking questions or saying something's not wrong with me.

And it wasn't until, my early to mid-twenties that I just couldn't stop asking the questions. And I couldn't deny the tie between these patriarchal teachings that I had in the church and the oppression and abuse of women on a global scale. And so, it was really frustrating to me cuz I thought Jesus was supposed to be a liberator.I thought, you know, Christianity was about freedom and, and it was supposed to be good news. But what I found is that, uh, in a lot of ways, or at least the Christianity I was taught, kept people in chains. And, as I did my own research into the Bible and into studies, I really realized that this is not the message of the Bible.

And also, that patriarchy is absolutely tied to abuse. And so, we can't stamp a God stamp on it and be like, okay, now it's holy. It's always gonna be wrong. It's always gonna be oppressive. And so, we need to root out those systems within our, everywhere it is. 

Jessica Hornstein: Do you think it's just, some misinterpretation because you said you read the Bible and you're like, wait, this isn't, this isn't what this is about, right? So, does it feel to you like it's just always been like this? Or do you think somebody is taking, like interpreting Adam and Eve and, and then applying their spin on it and coming up with a whole different meaning? 

Meghan Tschanz: I think that's a complicated question because, obviously every person on this planet has a lens through which they interpret the world. Had I been born a male, maybe I would've read the Bible and been like, yeah, this is about how women should serve me but I was born a female and so I knew the harm that came with a lot of, uh, these teachings.

And, so I think if we go back to history, we can see throughout history that Christianity has been used, as a tool of oppression, of empire, of colonization. and at the same time, it's also been the same thing that motivated abolitionists and activists and, feminists. And so, I think it's really interesting and I, um, interviewed someone about this. Her name is Rose J. Percy. She's a black woman and she talks about this concept of rulers' church versus people's church. And I think there's no clearer way to say that there's always been, um, people using a faith, whether or not they know it, to promote power, to promote their agenda. Right now, we see that with Christian Nationalism today.

People use Jesus' name to vote Republican and to storm the Capitol and all of these other things. But really, it's about political power. It's maintaining that political power. They're just using Jesus as a name because, “I can do all of these terrible things, but it's okay because I'm claiming this religious figure.”

And we see this across religions. Like if, for example, if we were to go to Iran and what's happening right now, with women standing up like the, the religion of Islam has been used by men to be very oppressive towards women, and we see this uprising and so we can see across the world, across different faiths that the dominant religion is often used as a tool of empire, of oppression, of suppression.

At the same time that we see this, for example, we have slaveholder Christianity where they used the Bible to justify slavery here in the United States. Then we also see people like Frederick Douglas and then later on the line, Martin Luther King, and, uh, you know, Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, all these people were also motivated by the Christian faith.

And so, when we're talking about people's church versus rulers' church, I think people have used the Bible to justify what they want. And sometimes it's not intentional. Sometimes it's, well, this is all I know. I haven't had reason, I have a lot of blind spots because I have privilege. And so, I haven't had a reason to kind of dive further into these teachings.

And then I also think a lot of people use it maliciously, even when confronted with just inconsistencies, extreme inconsistencies in the way women are talked about in scripture, and inconsistencies in the way that Jesus taught and embraced and, and encouraged women to lead versus, say, Paul, they, they kind of just pick and choose and ignore context.

And so, I think sometimes when confronted with that people choose to look the other way. And again, I think this is something that historically has been true. If this is a system that works for me, even if it's harming others, a lot of us will choose to go with the status quo. And I think that's why it's so important that in the Bible it says like, I mean, if you look at what Jesus said over and over and over and over and over again, he's like, serve those in need. Like be with the least of these. He said, whatever you've done the least of these you've done for me. And so, I think when people, I mean, if, if you come from a place of privilege and you're not serving the least of these, if you're not spending time with them, you're forever going to be stuck in a system that elevates you at the cost of others.

For me, that was part of my story, is like I knew that this system hurt me as a woman, I didn't know that it hurt all women until I started getting outside my bubble, getting outside my comfort zone and experiencing and meeting women and listening to their stories from across the world and across demographics.

And I honestly think if we, if people claim to be Christians and they don't serve the least of these, I mean, even in the Bible, like that's how Jesus says, that's how he separates the sheep from the goats is not people who call out his name. Uh, it's those who serve the least of these.

And so, I think, people will stay in that until they actually do what they should and realize that, yeah, maybe the system works for me, but it's actually harming a lot of other people. And I should care because I can't call myself a Christian if I don't. Yeah. So, I dunno if that answers your question.

Jessica Hornstein: No, well it's, it is a complicated question, as you said, and I mean, I've never heard that before. The rulers’ church versus the peoples's church. That's really interesting way to say it. Um, and that makes a lot of sense. and, and this is an ongoing conversation I keep having with people—especially these days about what is our, our inherent nature, right? Because you do see people who are really just serving themselves. Right? You see people who, they're in power, they wanna stay in power, and as you said, you know, they may use things to justify that position. And then there's a lot of people who realize, "No. if everybody isn't okay, nobody's okay. we have to take care of each other." I wonder how we shift more people into the people's church rather than the rulers’ church, right? Because in an ideal world whether it's, whether you're even affiliated with, with an organized religion or, you know, some faith or anything, but in an ideal world, as humans, you would hope that that's where we would all be. 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah. And that's a question I think a lot of us have been asking for a really long time, is how do we do this shift?

And I tried to do this shift internally and was torn to shreds. Um, because that system that protects power, like it is also gonna view anything that challenges that or asks a question about it as a threat. And I think one of the saddest things about this system is it, it trains people to turn against their loved ones if they branch out.

And I know that was my experience, that was my husband's experience. if I could tell you the number of DMs I get on the daily of people who have been so, so incredibly hurt, uh, by the system because a loved one told them, you've stepped out of line. I can't be your friend anymore. Or you're going to hell, or you're a false teacher, or you've been led astray, like literally the things are, like the things I hear, like go on and on and on.

And so, for me, that is really heartbreaking. And a lot of people do try and change the system from the inside and then find that they're treated as a threat and kind of kicked out. And that was, I mean, that's kind of my story is like, I worked at a missions organization. I started pushing back and, it became like a hostile environment for me. It wasn't one that I was, this is not good for my mental health. I need to leave. I didn't stop talking. I didn't stop saying what I needed to say, but I knew that I had done what I could within the organization. It was time to leave and, and see who would listen. I think that's all we can do is leave sometimes and see, see who will listen.

Find yourself in the wilderness. and I mean, it's really hard to, like, I don't wanna minimize that, but um, it's also kind of necessary. 

Jessica Hornstein: Right. Yeah. What was it in you that gave you the strength to be able, you know, when people are shunning you and, and criticizing what you're speaking out about? What was it that gave you the strength to hold your position and keep speaking out? 

Meghan Tschanz: I think it was, I mean, I had spent years and years working with exploited women and all of this time, I had raised all of this money to like serve them, which I felt like it was a disservice to even the funds that I raised to not to be like, “Oh, I see your pain. I see your oppression, I see your objectification. I'm just gonna keep on going with a system that oppresses you. Right. Cause my donors like it.” And, and, and so I, I just, what I found is like people were all for me, like helping women who were trafficked or oppressed or whatever, but as soon as I said, "Hey, I wouldn't have to help these women if we stopped supporting systems that harmed them gravely." It was okay for me to say, human trafficking is bad. It wasn't okay for me to say patriarchy drives human trafficking, sexism, racism, classism, all of these things are driving human trafficking. So, it was like, it's okay that you wanna help, but it's not okay if you wanna make it better, something. I don't even know.

And that, and that was my experience. And really it was, it was thinking about those women and feeling like the last five years of my life you know, however long I was on the field, cuz it was like on and off, that would be a lie. I wouldn't actually care about them if I was just like, “I see how you're hurt, I see how you're oppressed, and you know what, it's okay. Just shh, don't, don't talk about it. Like, just be quiet.” And so for me, I think that's what gave me the strength is I couldn't live this, I couldn't live with inconsistencies. Sometimes, you know, I, it was almost like a moment, like the scales fell from my eyes. And I just, I couldn't, and, and I, I think it became really, really clear to me. You know, I was making all of these connections, but it was, I was in the Philippines and uh, working with women who had been sexually exploited and this American army guy was talking to us and we were, working with women and then, inviting them to a program that if they wanted to leave, they could go through, it would pay for all of their college education and all of that stuff.

And he asked us why we're there, and we told him and we, you know, turned the question back on him. And he said that he came to the Philippines, to these women who were being exploited to get the respect that he deserved, that women there knew their place, that they were submissive, um, and did what he, they were told and, um, served men and, and it was just like this really long rant. And I'm like, this is so familiar. This is so familiar. Where have I heard it before? And then it just hit me like a ton of bricks that it was like all of the pastors I had growing up. This is exactly what they trained me to be. Submissive, silent, serve him. And that's when I saw that the motivation of these, these men who bought trafficked women and my pastors was the same.

Like, like one was cloaked in religious language and one, I guess was what it was. And that's what was the moment of no return. That's when I knew I had to quit my job. I, I just couldn't unsee. I couldn't unsee. And yeah. So that's what drove me forward. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty shocking. Yeah. I, I am sure like when that comparison came to you. 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah. I mean, it was just funny. I'm like, this is so familiar. And then it, it was such a different context that it took me a while and then I'm like, “Oh, oh my gosh. I can't be part of the system. And if, and if I'm gonna be part of the system, I need to like tear it down.”

I still call myself a Christian. I still, I'm a Christ follower. I am not a Christian Nationalist, I am not an Evangelical, I'm not a lot of the things, and in fact, a lot of people wouldn't call me Christian because my beliefs are not cookie cutter, but I follow Christ and I believe in his teachings.

And, uh, anyways, all that to say is that was like the moment of no return. And the sad part is that I could tell that story to everyone and they're like, you're going to hell. I mean, I remember. It's just so ridiculous. Uh, I can't even tell you the things that my husband and I have gone through. And of course, like my, when I got, when we got married, my, my in-laws, kept on getting on him to like control his wife and really, um, oh yeah. In fact, when I launched the Faith and Feminism podcast, the day it launched, I had three one-star reviews and I have my suspicions about who left those because not a lot of people knew I was starting the podcast. But I'm telling you, people have tried to shut me up for a really long time. I, and I think most of them have given up now. 

Jessica Hornstein: You wore them down. A little bit. 

Meghan Tschanz: Maybe they just know I'm not like, gonna change my mind or I'm not going to go back. I can't unsee. I'm not gonna go there.

So, I don't wanna minimize, like Dustin and I,—my husband— cried and like we cried. It was such a hard time. We cried all the time. And now it's just like, I've gone to therapy, I've processed it. I have really strong boundaries and I'm gonna keep talking and you know, if you wanna be in relationship with me, you gotta uphold my boundaries.

Cause I'm not, I'm not, I'm not taking any more abuse. I'm done with that. And, and, and the, you know, there's a quote, I think it's Maya Angelou. it says, "each time a woman stands up for herself, she stands up for all women." 

Jessica Hornstein: I love, you, you have a quote, I think you wrote on your website that says, “I think we miss God's heart when we refuse to empower or listen to women.” 

Meghan Tschanz: Oh, absolutely. 

Jessica Hornstein: I thought that was really lovely. 

Meghan Tschanz: Of course, we do. 

Jessica Hornstein: Of course. But yeah, you know, things that should be obvious aren't, always obvious.

Meghan Tschanz: I just think sometimes we think, “Oh, I can submit to this abuse.” And I'm like, you're not helping anyone.

You're not helping yourself, and you're not helping women in general. And, and I, and I get that sometimes, it definitely takes a while and you shouldn't do it until you're ready because it's, it can be really hard, but I just don't want people to believe in the lie that the right thing to do is to sit up and shut down or shut, uh, sit down and shut up.

Jessica Hornstein: Shut up. Right. Gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha. Well, how do you think, I mean, what is the best way? Because it is hard, how do we support women or even men, like your husband, right, who clearly went through his own process to have some objectivity and step back and say, this is not okay. How, how do we support people to make that shift? 

Meghan Tschanz: I think it's different, um, for men and women because obviously and race wise is different. I actually have in the back of my book, a section where I talk to men and women specifically, about it. And, I think the simplest answer is I think we first need to become aware of how we are upholding an oppressive system.

So, for me, I knew pretty early on, patriarchy is bad. It's hurting women. I didn't see the way that me as a white woman was aligned with white supremacy. I didn't see the way that I was upholding oppressive systems too. So, I had to sit back and take some time and read lots of books and I'm still very much in the process of this. But learn how I'll, oh, okay. What systems am I upholding? This system hurt me, but what systems am I upholding that harms others? So that's like the first thing is I think to do some self-work. 

Uh, I'd say the second thing is to find a, a community, uh, to do the self-work because it's not easy by any means. And it can get really lonely and people will attack you. I mean, I've gotten emails from random men who told me I should be raped, uh, because, and that they can tell by my face that I'm a whore and ladi da yada, like all of the, just most heinous things. And they'll say it right next to Jesus' name, like, Jesus, whatever, whatever, you should be raped. And so, I, it's, anyways, so get a support system.

Jessica Hornstein: It's awful. I'm sorry, you have to go. I mean that's hard.

Meghan Tschanz: I mean that's, like I said, it was a lot more before when I was first starting to speak up. Um, but now it's like, I think people have like, oh, this isn't working, she's not gonna change her mind. 

So, but all that to say, find a community. I think that's really, really important. Find someone you can talk to, at least just one person that you can talk to. Um, because I think when we get the courage to speak out, we find out that we're not alone. We think we're alone. Basically, I built my brand by just saying the thing that so many of us were thinking that no one had the courage to say. I just say the thing that everyone thinking, right? And it pisses a lot of people off, but it also, so many people also resonate with it. And I had to be okay with pissing some people off because again, I couldn't discount all of those stories I had heard. 

And then I think the last thing is to, I think give yourself grace. It's, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. It's a lifetime journey. and I, I will be the first to admit, I haven't arrived at, you know, being totally woke or ethical or whatever you wanna say it to, or to use a biblical term, I'm in the process of being sanctified. I'm not there yet. Um, but to give yourself grace, and I think for me, some of the hardest parts has been looking back at my own story and being like, “Oh man, I was complicit there.” Or, “Ooh, I shouldn't, I can't believe I said that to all of those people. I can't believe I endorsed this teaching.” You know, you go back through your, your Facebook memories, you're like, “Oh my gosh, I can't believe I like.” Um, but I think to give us, give ourselves grace because we were part of a system. This is what, this is all we knew, and I'm gonna quote Maya Angelou again. "Do the best you can until you know better. And when you know better, do better." So, my advice is constantly strive to know better so you can do better, but make sure you're not alone while you do it, because you're gonna need those people.

Jessica Hornstein: Mm-hmm. Those are all great points. And I think that last point is so important because about giving yourself grace. Because if we, are hard on ourselves and expect, I mean, we should, we should be honest with ourselves, we should, you know, take a clear accounting of, of what we're contributing or not. But if we're so hard on ourselves that we expect, you know, that we've reached some point of enlightenment, right, where, you know, we can't accept, as you say that we've said, like, “oh what, what was I thinking?” You know? Yeah. Right. All those things. You know, we back ourselves into a corner a little bit, right? It then makes it harder to say, “I don't know. Or I'm still learning, or, right, you know, I did something wrong, or, you know, I could have done that better.” And that, I think that is, you're right, like the moment really calls for that now. Yeah. For us to all be able to do that. 

Meghan Tschanz: Right. Can you imagine if our leaders did that? Like, sorry, it was wrong. Let me try and do better, this is how I'm gonna try and learn how to do better. And I just don't, I mean, living, for example, in a patriarchal society you don't admit when you're wrong. You don't admit when you make a mistake. And so, when we're in that kind of society, it's really hard to do better because we're already the best. I think that is, is is so important and there is so much grace, like to remind yourself, especially if I, as I've gone through therapy, is like you were surviving, uh, a really oppressive system you were trying to survive in a place where who you were wasn't welcome. Um, and so you went along with things that you didn't necessarily believe, or maybe you believed them at the time because it felt safer. Um, but, you know, I'm glad you're where you are now. I'm really glad that that girl back then, or that boy back then brought you to where you are today.

If I could just, I, I think that's when I have conversations with people, the ones who are the most unwilling to consider new perspectives or to admit that maybe they could have done something wrong. I mean, that's, I don't, that's when you're in trouble. I think, um, I think we need to have a, a real healthy dose of humility as we move forward through life.

Cuz I've made so many mistakes, um, and I, I, I try to do better. And that was one of the hardest things I think about writing my, my book is I was like, okay, I know in five years I'm gonna disagree with some of the things I wrote in this book. I know it. And now this book is out there forever and I'm gonna know better, but I can't tell the people who are reading my book, “Oh, wait a second, I know better now let me edit that.” And I wrote that— 

Jessica Hornstein: Skip page 52, please. 

Meghan Tschanz: Exactly. Exactly. And so, I wrote that in my forward. I'm like, this is a snapshot in time of this is the most grown I am right now as I'm writing this book. This is the best I know at this point. Um, but I'm not there and I'm sure there's gonna be things in the future, um, that I'm gonna disagree with and that's okay.

And it was actually Glennon Doyle who really, like, when I was really struggling with this, she talked about, so she's obviously gone through a huge transformation in her life. And she was talking about one of her oldest books where there's a lot of things she doesn't agree with, now, and she had someone come up to her like 10 years later and she said, that book you wrote this one that's, you know, 10 years old changed my life. And so maybe you're not at the place you were when you wrote that book, but that place, that book will meet someone. 

Jessica Hornstein: Someone else, right. 

Meghan Tschanz: When they need it. Yeah. And so, um, that's what I'm finding that my book, that's my prayer, is that my book will find people who need it, who are in that place and need it at this point, but not the, and not the people who are like, oh, I'm, this is old news or whatever. Yeah. So I, I think, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's growth. 

Jessica Hornstein: I think that's brilliant. Yeah. And it's brilliant and it's so wise and I think the, you know, the vision that you, that you had, knowing that in five years you will, you will feel differently and being really honest about that. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Cause it's absolutely true. 

Meghan Tschanz: I saw Sarah Bessey and you know, she wrote the book Jesus Feminist. And I like, you know, that was, you know, really integral for me when I was first looking for a way to reconcile my feminist beliefs with my faith.

And she was, she wrote a post about how like there's some things that she wants to change. And I'm like, that's gonna happen to anyone if, as long as they're growing and it's a bad thing if I don't look at who I was five years ago and they go, well, maybe I didn't fully understand that, or maybe I could have worded this better.

Jessica Hornstein: It is, it's so important to acknowledge that. And in anything, right, in anything in our lives. I mean, we are always evolving. So, I think it's such an important thing to remember because otherwise we can't, we can't grow, we can't make better decisions. We can't, you know, set the boundaries we need to set. We can't do any of that if we're stuck in holding onto where we were five years ago or five minutes ago or whatever it is. 

Was there, I a point where you, when, when you were coming to these realizations, I'm like, oh, this is not okay. was there a point where you considered, do I have to throw the baby out with the bath water here? Like, can I reconcile my faith and my beliefs with this other part of it that I so, you know, disagree with? 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that would've been more of a question if I hadn't found people like Sarah Bessey and Rachel Held Evans, uh, and other authors, Rob Bell, who and I mean, that's what I hear a lot from people who read my book.

Like, I think I would've thrown away my faith if I didn't know there was another way to be a Christian. I think that what the church has done is so harmful that there's only one very strict, rigid version of it. As if, as if humanity is not humanity, as if we're not individuals, as if, as if we don't come from different cultures and households.

And, and I, I think that is one of the biggest flaws that I think Evangelicalism finds itself in today. They found like these five macho men who interpreted the Bible according to them, and they bought into "oh, if you think something different, then you're not a Christian." Like people say, I can't be at the same church as you if you think that baptism is sprinkling and I think it's dunking or whatever it is. And so, I think that there needs to be space for questions. There needs to be space for different beliefs. And I, and I love my church now. I go to a very progressive United Methodist church and we're in our Sunday School

and the things I hear around the table, like every single one of them would've kicked someone outta an Evangelical church. But I love it cause I'm like, I've never seen it that way. Thank you for bringing this scripture from your lens, from your perspective, from your race, from your socioeconomic, from your, you know, age, all of these different factors. I have never seen it that way, and now I feel like I understand it a little bit better. And I think the biggest disservice the Evangelical church is, is when they heard something, I was like, oh, that's, wow. Mind blown. That's a really great way to look at it. I feel like I understand scripture a little bit better now.

They say, “Oh no, that's not the way I interpreted it.” Or more like, that's not the way whoever, whatever talking head it is. This is not the way he interprets it. And he is the one that knows best. So, you're wrong. And, um, I think that's, that's a big disservice.

And so, my prayer is that our, our faith systems aren't so afraid of questions and differing opinions and what certain things mean, uh, to people. Um, because I think, again, we're missing out if, if we don't understand the diversity. I mean, if, if, if Christianity is supposed to be good news for all people, we need to understand how it's good news for, you know, a single mom or a drag queen or, a five-year-old, or a 90-year-old man. Or a, you know, a black person, an immigrant. There's so many different perspectives. And if we're not opening our eyes to that, it's not good news for all people. It's good news for small group, right? Yeah, exactly. And so I think that, um, that's one of the biggest disservices. 

Jessica Hornstein: I mean, what you're talk, you know, this podcast is about validation and invalidation in all the ways that, that, that plays out in, in our lives and in the world. And I think what you're, you know, what you're really talking about are two different models of, of how Christianity could be.One is a very invalidating model, right? Where it's this very narrow— 

Meghan Tschanz: Right. 

Jessica Hornstein: “No, you're wrong. You're wrong for believing what you believe. You're wrong for feeling the way you feel.” And one is a validating model where it's accepting, and “I want to hear you, I want to understand you through your lens and welcome you and accept you.” Right? 

Meghan Tschanz: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's true. Absolutely. And I think through meeting different people and opening ourselves to different experiences, oh, they said what I feel, but I haven't had the words and that's how I felt when I read Womanist Midrash by Dr. Gafney.

I'm like, you can ask those questions? It's ok. You're gonna live. And so, like for her, for me, the way she interrogated scripture and, um, gosh, I mean one of the biggest disservices I've heard that literalism is the lowest form of understanding. And when I look at the Bible, I think that's a hundred percent true. Um, and especially because if you realize there's so many different ways, like they're poems, they're songs, they're letters, like they're, it's not a rule book. And so many people read it as such. And I remember being told that, you know, all the sermons I heard were like, Abraham is great, David is great, and we don't talk about how harmful these men were to women in their lives. Uh, that scripture is not just like, I'm just gonna read this and like not interrogate or ask questions or allow my soul to engage with it. Like when I read about what Abraham did, like, ah, I'm angry and I'm grossed out. And like, how is that, why is everyone such fans of, why are we singing Father Abraham in Bible school? I think we've been taught to kind of take our souls out of it. 

Jessica Hornstein: How do you reconcile that in your heart? Like when you, or in your soul or wherever, wherever you place that, where, you know, you read those things as you said, grosses you out— 

Meghan Tschanz: Makes me angry. 

Jessica Hornstein: It makes you angry. Yeah. 

Meghan Tschanz: How do I reconcile it? 

Jessica Hornstein: Reconcile that, right, with that's within a text that other parts of it clearly have very deep meaning for you. Right?

Meghan Tschanz: I even would say that those parts have deep meaning for me because I think what the story of the Bible is. If I was to simplify it in a way that I probably shouldn't, it's the story of people trying to find God and they get it wrong again and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again and again, until Jesus comes.

And he is like, this is what God's like. He's inclusive, he's welcoming, he serves the least of these. He comes, you know, he humbles himself. But if we look at what people understood of God in the Old Testament, which makes sense because this is like really old times, and this is all people knew of God was God is angry. God needs sacrifices. God, um, you know, is patriarchal. God likes genocide. God likes all of these things. And what I see is that these prophets come like, no, no, no. That's not what God's like, no, no, no, no. That's not what God's like. And like we couldn't get it until Jesus says, no, this is, this is what I'm like. Um, and so for me, that's kind of how I read scripture is people like us, like me, who get it wrong again and again and again and again, get the idea, and then all of a sudden, oh, God is loving. God is kind. You know, God is all of these things. God is not an asshole. Um, but so many of these like negative voices that I heard it like condemning voices I thought was God, cuz that's what they told me. But through growing in my relationship with God and experiencing the world, I'd be like, oh no, God is like this. God is like this. God is like this. Um, and if we really just wanna boil it down, I think to discern what is God and what is not. I think we can just go to the fruit of a spirit. Um, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-faithfulness, self-control. I don't know if I named all of them, but, you get the gist of that. 

So, I think, I think that's what I see when I read the Bible. It's like when, when David is crying out in the Psalms and says like wacky things. I think sometimes he says like some wacky things. This is not literal, this is him trying to express his anguish and I can relate with that. When so-and-so screws up within a system, this is not saying this is how it should be. This is, this is how they messed up and this is how they're trying to do better and trying to learn more about who God is. And so, when I read those stories, I don't read them as this is who God is, this is, this is who I thought God was.

And because of this is, this was my idea of God, I hurt so and so, and then I learned to do better, and then I, I make another mistake and I learn to do better. And, um, so that's kind of how I reconcile those stories.

I do not think God told Abraham to kill Isaac. I don't think he, God, that was God that told him to sacrifice his son. Um, I think that's what he understood of God. And I think he thought it was God. and I mean, that's why a lot of people don't think I'm Christian. They're like, oh, how can you, well that's, that's the way I view it and that's the way I've, I've studied scripture and I've done a lot of learning and right now that's what I think . 

Jessica Hornstein: Get back to you in five years, right? 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah, exactly. Five years right now. Five. Right. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yeah. Right. No, and I, I mean, thank you for that perspective.

It's, it's really interesting to me. you know, it is so complex but the way you've described it, it really, it feels like it sets it in a context that sort of honors everybody's individual freedom too, right. And their experience and their growth and, and their relationship with whatever they believe in. Right. Right. 

Meghan Tschanz: I, yeah. I wanna say one more thing. So, we even see Jesus quoting scripture and then saying, no, that's not who God is. And so like, if Jesus is allowed to do this? Okay. Like if Jesus is saying, you have heard it said, and I'm telling you there's a better way, I think that gives us permission. We also see, um, in a vision that Peter had, like the blanket of food that's coming down from the sky and it's like all this unclean food and, and this vision, he is like, God says like taste and eat.

And he is like, no, no, no, that's dirty. Can't do that. And he like, and the blanket keeps on coming down. And eventually, it gets to the point where God says to Peter, do not call unclean what I have made clean. And for me, I think that is a perfect metaphor, is like, you were in this old system before, this is what you knew.

And not to say that it was necessarily bad, maybe at that time knowing that certain foods were unclean, actually had a purpose and it was benefiting you and this was safety. But now I'm saying there's a new way to do things and um, maybe what was once unclean is now clean. And, and I think that gives us permission to ask those questions. Um, and so if Jesus is modeling that, then if we're following Jesus, shouldn't it be also be doing that. Just a question. 

Jessica Hornstein: It's a good question, there's so much division right now. There's division within, as you've been describing within Christianity. There's division with Christianity and other religions. I mean, there's just division everywhere right now. We're just getting, you know, cleaved off at every, at every fork. How do you think we can understand each other better, validate each other better, whether it's somebody who is within our religion with not in our religion, I mean, where do you think we start with, um, you know, with, with validating each other rather than, than using all this is a tool to divide? 

Meghan Tschanz: I think that, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. Something my therapist told me is validate what you can. Um, so here's an example I'll give.

So, I worked a lot with women who, and girls who had been trafficked sex trafficked. And during the pandemic, there was so much misinformation about human trafficking. Like, especially like one lie that I, that made me so angry was that masks help human trafficking. Um, which, gosh, I don't know who started that lie. Uh, but it's not true. Uh, they said that the whole, like the meme that I saw everywhere was that human traffickers are putting like masks on kids so they can't be identified or something. And this is how human traffickers are functioning with these masks. I'm like, no, actually masks, like we know reduced transmission of this disease. Hundreds of thousands of people but so it was kind of like this anti, and so in so many ways it made me mad because one, I had friends who had lost loved ones due to Covid-19. I had vulnerable family members that I wanted to protect. I was mad at the idea that we shouldn't be wearing masks.

I was mad that these lies were being spread, that, uh, the masks, if you wore a mask, you were helping human traffickers. because that's not true. And if we know again, what contributes to human trafficking, there's a lot of factors. It's not just one. but patriarchy, racism, um, and you know what, the pandemic did contribute to some human trafficking, but it wasn't because of masks. It was because there's a lot of instability and instability, creates what is called an ACE. ACE. Those who are trafficked, um, have a lot of ACEs or adverse childhood experiences. And so, those are who is most likely to be trafficked.

And also a lot of kids come from the foster care system, because they experienced a lot of abuse. And a way the traffickers prey on potential victims is by meeting a lot of needs that these girls have and then pretending to be someone and then, and then being someone else and trafficking them.

Right? Right. That's a story I've heard a lot, here in the United States. So, I knew that the masks had nothing to do with it. And in fact, if we wanted to see less human trafficking during the pandemic, we needed to get out of it as soon as possible. Um, and the best way we could do that was stop spreading rumors—

Jessica Hornstein: About wearing masks.

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah, exactly. I was—

Jessica Hornstein: Just comes full circle right. 

Meghan Tschanz: Frustrated by these lies and, and the people who were posting it, um, you know, I felt like they were night and day from the person I was and they were ill-informed and they weren't doing their research and so I think one is we have compassion. Like, “Oh, I see that you care about human trafficking. Can I, can I share my experience with you and, and what I know?” And, and I feel like asking questions is the best way. And so, what my therapist had always said to me with difficult family members is validate what you can.

“Okay. Oh, I see that you really care for our military and veterans. How do you think we could best care for them? Do you think social systems might help them? Do you think we should be contributing to, funds like our government should, should pay for, mental healthcare for them because a lot of them are dying by suicide? Do you think?” You know, so like asking those questions. I see. So, whatever the issue is, “I see that you care about human trafficking or whatever. Can I ask you a question? How do you think is the best way to prevent that? Can you tell me how you think masks are contributing? Can we like, think this through for a second?” And like, say it nicer than that.

“So, tell me how masks are contributing to that. You know what in my experience, this is what I know. Let, let's do some research here.” And so, I think that is the best way. And when I'm in my higher self and well-rested and all that stuff, I can do that. I also know that sometimes, you know, like for example, during the pandemic and I was on high alert, and I was exhausted and scared, like sometimes I don't have the mental capacity to do things like that.

And so, in that case, I just let it go. Cause I don't have, I don't have the mental energy to do it.. And I don't think that they're gonna listen to me. And so, um, what I did instead, cuz I saw this so many times, instead of like commenting on each thing, I shared a very detailed slideshow of what I knew about human trafficking.

Like there's a meme going around, here's all of these facts. Let me source these with information. And I just shared that and it blew up. And so, what I would recommend in those scenarios, if, I mean if we're talking about on social media, but just on life in general, don't waste your time arguing with someone who's not gonna listen to you. If you have a relationship with them, go ahead and validate what you can and then maybe have a conversation. If it's some rando on the internet, it's not worth your time. But if you're seeing a lot of randos on the internet saying a lot of crazy things, use your influence where you have it. And so, when I see a lot of these things coming up, I'm gonna address this meme that people keep sharing. And I'm gonna show you facts and I'm gonna show you resources. Right. And I'm gonna talk to you about media literacy and how we can do better. And so that's what I did, is I used my influence where I had it. I just said, okay, this is what I know. This is what my experience tells me. Here's all of these sources that I have. Um, and they can engage with that. And oftentimes, you know what, I bet Janet maybe looked at that. And because I didn't call her out specifically, she wasn't feeling defensive. And she's like, you know what, maybe I should take that post down. Right? Because now I'm seeing, “Oh shoot. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I should do some research on this.”  And so, I think that's the best way to handle it if we're talking about the internet. And I think if we're talking about a loved one, validate what you can, and then move forward. You don't have to agree things that are wrong. That is not what validation is. It's like, “oh, I, you care about drug trafficking, so yes, let's talk about it.”

Jessica Hornstein: Well, and we have to understand too, and I mean, especially to your point of, of everything that sort of exploded during the pandemic that the more fear we have, the, the less able we are to hear, to learn, to grow, right? To understand somebody else's perspective and all of that. 

Meghan Tschanz: Which is why so many politicians market in fear, right? Like, so and so is stealing your job. They are drug traffickers. Yes. They're whatever they are. And so, I can't see them as human beings trying to find a better life because I'm afraid of them.

And I haven't engaged with them because I only engage with people that look and talk and like have the money that I have at my church, you know? Again, that's why I think when the Bible talks about serving the least of these, that's why I'm not gonna be afraid of immigrants if I just once listen to one of their stories. But fear is effective. And so that's why politicians use it to maintain power. 

Jessica Hornstein: Yes, exactly. No, you're exactly right. I really appreciate your perspective. I mean, as somebody who did not grow up with formal religious education, this is really, really fascinating to me and really interesting, and I feel like I've learned a lot. So, I thank you. I really thank you for that. And, for the way, you know, for your approach to, to how you're addressing these, these questions, these big, big, huge questions.

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah. This is how I'm answering it today. Ask me in 10 years how I'm gonna—

Jessica Hornstein: I'm, I'm going to. I'm going to be knocking on your door. Um, so tell, just tell us what's next for you now. 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah. Um, so I just became a mom. She's almost six months old, so maybe not just became, but it feels new, so— 

Jessica Hornstein: It's pretty new. Yeah. 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah. So, I was originally going to go back to school, graduate school, in the winter, but I pushed that back to the fall. but I'm going to get my master of divinity because I want to make the church more loving and inclusive and less sexist. And I also want the church to repent of a lot of the harm that it's caused in the name of God.

And so that's what I'm doing next. I'm sure more books will come down the pipeline, but right now I'm just, you know, figuring out mom life, trying to— 

Jessica Hornstein: Trying to get a little sleep. 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah, trying to balance that. 

Jessica Hornstein: I understand. 

Meghan Tschanz: Work and my page and my podcast and all of the things I was doing before now with a little one. And, um, yeah, so that's what I'm doing. 

Jessica Hornstein: That's plenty. 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah. 

Jessica Hornstein: Your plate is full for sure. Yeah. Well, you enjoy that beautiful baby of yours. 

Meghan Tschanz: Oh, thank you. 

Jessica Hornstein: And I really appreciate you joining me here today. 

Meghan Tschanz: Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Jessica Hornstein: Thanks so much, Megan.

Thank you for listening and being part of the conversation. Please find a way to validate yourself today. Maybe find a way to validate someone else too. And if you enjoyed the show, please rate review and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. You can also join me at No, Not Crazy on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.

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