Salads Don't Make Friends

Bacon, Eggs, and Cocaine

• Ben and Sarah • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Our first episode! So much to talk about - the coolest Jurors to ever grace the bench, how much make-up does it take to fake-up, historic firsts, and online worsts. Stick around for the insane story that is Ogtha. We ask the tough questions, like can Rosie the Robot consent? You don't want to miss this premiere episode!

Ben:

Welcome to the first episode of salads don't make friends. I am Ben. And this is Sarah.

Sarah:

And we need a better intro. All right, we should warn the public to like, you know, set the bar low and, you know, manage expectations. Expectations.

Ben:

That's, that's the theme of this episode is manage your expectations. All right, did you want to start this one? Do you want me to start this one?

Sarah:

Why don't you?

Ben:

As you know, I'm a legal nerd. I want to tell you about my favorite case, and I only found out about this case this year. Have you ever heard of Tanner versus the United States?

Sarah:

No I haven't.

Ben:

It was a case in 1986. It started with the plaintiffs Anthony Tanner and William Conover. They were indicted on conspiracy charges to commit fraud and mail fraud found guilty. The case itself is pretty boring. William Conover was hired to build the road runs out of materials, he uses cheaper materials makes a cheaper road. I don't remember how it folded in on itself. But essentially, the local government went, you know, this is fraud; you didn't do with the job you're supposed to do. Anyway, doesn't matter. So it goes to court. And eventually it's appealed - the conspiracy and fraud charges. Reason being, the jury got a little too wild and crazy. So it was appealed to the Supreme Court. Let me walk you through a few of the things that they were found to have done during during the trial, not even deliberations, but the entire trial. They had one to three pitchers of beer every day during recess...

Sarah:

as you should

Ben:

as you should - mixing drinks during lunch recess. Which, sure! the fore person drinking a liter of wine for lunch.

Sarah:

Aren't people sequestered during this period of time?

Ben:

Yes.

Sarah:

So somebody had to have been providing some alcohol.

Ben:

Well, they went out to lunch, you know, as jurors do. Smoking marijuana regularly during the trial.

Sarah:

Good. Good. That's helpful.

Ben:

There was cocaine use witnessed between two jurors at least seven times. Probably in the double digits. One juror sold another juror a quarter pound of weed during the trial.

Sarah:

A quarter pound!?

Ben:

He came in with a big ol sack of weed. When was the bailiff asked one of the jurors, How are you? He says I'm flying.

Sarah:

Oh, that's perfectly appropriate for sure.

Ben:

You should never be flying at jury duty, I believe.

Sarah:

Right?

Ben:

People are caught sleeping during the trial. And I don't know if you've seen the episode of The Simpsons where Homer wears his glasses during jury duty...

Sarah:

Oh, yeah.

Ben:

So he can sleep. They didn't have those apparently. Anyway, copious amounts of alcohol, marijuana, cocaine during deliberations. So the district court had a rule against post trial juror interviews, meaning that after the decision was made, you can't just go and badger the jurors. I don't know why. Why not? Anyway, one of the jurors spoke out to the counsel of the defendants. Vera Asbul: I think that was the initial narc who went to the defendants and said, Listen, these guys were getting fucked up every goddamn day. And I'm

Sarah:

So, all jurors were not participating? tired of it.

Ben:

Correct.

Sarah:

Okay, even better.

Ben:

It wasn't even like a huge party. There was a couple nerds. Daniel Hardy, "the narc" as I know him. He literally said the jury is one big party. Tanner, who was the defense counsel noted some jurors to be in a giggly mood. He hired a private investigator to interview the jurors after the trial. So this is how we find out that there was a quarter pound of weed sold, that they were doing blow in the bathrooms, that they were getting hammered during lunch. Which I mean, it's jury duty. Jury duty sucks. Why? Why you got a harsh there buzz...

Sarah:

Because you're trying to do a service... to you know,

Ben:

Yeah, but Service with a smile.

Sarah:

Perhaps people should be in their best frame of mind should be on a jury. But that's just my personal thoughts on that.

Ben:

Well, the post trial interviews of the private investigator - those are essentially inadmissible because they're not allowed to interview post trial. So when it gets to the Supreme Court, they're not allowed to call on the jurors themselves, as they're deemed incompetent to testify, because they're not allowed to testify.

Sarah:

But are they deemed incompetent to do so? Or they're just restricted to do so, or both? I thought incompetence is a sanity ruling?

Unknown:

Oh,

Ben:

I'm not a lawyer, alright

Sarah:

Sorry. I just have so many questions.

Ben:

How do you think this went? Which direction? Would you say it went?

Sarah:

What year was this again?

Ben:

1986.

Sarah:

Oh, goodness.

Ben:

Cocaine was running in the veins of every other person.

Sarah:

Yeah, yeah. I honestly....

Ben:

Bong hits in the stands.

Sarah:

I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Ben:

Well, they lost the appeal. Had the jury brought it up during the trial, that would be one thing. But they brought it up after the trial. And that brings a bigger problem, because what'll happen is if you set that precedence that you can start interviewing jurors after the trial? Well, every trial that goes to jury is going to be reopened over and over, ad nauseam.

Sarah:

Right, right.

Ben:

Because don't want to be guilty, right? This is my

favorite quote from it:

Thurgood Marshall said, "bacon, eggs and cocaine". Ok, if we scrutinize what was in their system at the time, how far does that go? Was his point. Do we look at what they had for breakfast?Do we look at how physically fit they are? Do we look at whether they smoke cigarettes? Do we look at any number of factors that can affect our mental health? or decision making process I should say, not mental health.

Sarah:

Well, I feel like that's a bit of a stretch.

Ben:

I mean, it's a massive stretch. BUt... it's my man, Thurgood Marshall. I can't really fault him for that.

Sarah:

Well, I mean, I can see both sides of the coin on this situation. But I mean, people were taking...

Ben:

I think the line is cocaine. I think that is a safe line to take. Or you say, You know what? Cocaine should not be in your system when you're Presiding over someone's life.

Sarah:

I feel like any any judgment altering... anything, should be....

Ben:

And not to mention that we're guilty anyway, they were so guilty. So even if there wasn't cocaine, and a fucking quarter pound of weed, going back and forth, and people weren't sleeping - They were pretty guilty. So. So that is the case of Tanner versus United States (Tanner v US).

Sarah:

I'd be curious if there's been any updates to that whole process with the jury now we'll need to I need to,

Ben:

I sort of looked into it. I was more engrossed in that trial specifically. I didn't really see anything in terms of, but again, I'm an idiot. I don't know what I'm looking at. I'm not like at Harvard Law Library, looking through books. I thought it was funny that people were high as shit on cocaine. And the Supreme Court was like, Yeah, that's fine. But even like the sleeping piece of that, like, I feel like a juror would get expelled. I feel like they should have said it when it happened.

Sarah:

Right? I mean, absolutely should have been.

Ben:

So I totally get what the Supreme Court is coming from like, you can't just reopen a trial, every time right trial, because that's just, it's gonna be insane. We already have a clogged legal system as right things take years and years and years to go to the Supreme Court. So if you see someone sleeping in the jury, speak up in the moment. Or just let me sleep. Who cares?

Sarah:

I mean, I guess it depends on on that person's judgment. Right. Maybe you want them sleeping.

Ben:

This guy was defrauding the local government. So I'm

Sarah:

Yeah, yeah. took a nap. He's a shitbag. Anyway, due process.

Ben:

I think it was two people. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But that is the case of Tanner versus United States.

Sarah:

Fascinating. All right. So this is completely not even close to any kind of legal discussion.

Ben:

Doesn't have to be.

Sarah:

Thanks. Thanks for that permission.

Ben:

You're welcome.

Sarah:

So, you see a lot of things online, right? Like, I am not a frequent online peruser so to speak, but I've seen enough stuff where a lot of articles come up about makeup.

Ben:

Yes, right. Okay.

Sarah:

Having seen something on TV with this... This woman, who looks like a completely different human being from the time that she wakes up to like her hour in the bathroom. And then she goes about her day completely fucking, like, just looks way different.

Ben:

How long does it take you to get ready in the bathroom? Would you say? Oh, because I can get in and out in like, 20 minutes.

Sarah:

Yeah, I feel like I can probably...

Ben:

An hour feels like... I don't know what I would do with all that time.

Sarah:

Well, the hour was just the makeup.

Ben:

I know. That's what I'm saying. It's like...

Sarah:

yeah, no, I can be awake and out the door for work within an hour, right? Yeah, no, that's absurd. That's just absurd.

Ben:

It is absurd.

Sarah:

But it got me thinking at what point do you consider wearing of makeup as kind of like a catfishing situation? Like at what point is the amount of makeup somebody wears essentially lying to everybody and doesn't matter?

Ben:

I mean, I've heard that before, I don't really believe that. I feel more like, if you break it down in those terms I wouldn't call it fake. I wouldn't call it lying. It's more expressive. It's more personal. It's obviously... it's not their normal skin. But you could go that far with haircuts, you could go with clothing.

Sarah:

Alright, let me rephrase it for you. Alright, you're out and about, say you're like just this single guy out and about. And you see this like, hot chick, and you're like, oh, man, like, you like her features, they just really speak to you. And you're just immediately attracted to her. Right?

Ben:

You lost me.

Sarah:

Sadly, hypothetically, then, you, you know, do whatever, you know, maybe you're easy. Next morning, wake up. No judgement here. But you wake up, and this person had like, the makeup and all that. And they look completely fucking different than they did when you met them. And you are not attracted to this person as they are naturally. So does that change? Like your, your...

Ben:

depends on the context. There's a lot of context there that if, if it was someone who like I was starting to see starting to date, probably no, because if....

Sarah:

I think this would be something fun to get other people's feedback on, maybe we table this subject, because I am very curious how people think of this, because I would feel like I was being fooled in a way like, and not I mean, not that people can't go out and look the way that they want to look and, you know, do whatever they want to do. But I almost feel like there needs to be some kind of disclosure if if it's like, a situation where you're like meeting this person and like getting interested in them, you know, in that kind of sexual or relationship way where you should be like, hey, look, this is this is not what I look like, you know, normally it's not.

Ben:

Yeah, like say someone was wearing...they scrunch your body...

Sarah:

Like Spanx, or?

Ben:

Yeah, if someone was wearing that, or like now they have the... but I feel like I'm walking on eggshells here. I feel like I'm gonna say the wrong answer. Whatever.

Sarah:

Yeah, no matter what you say somebody is going to want to at you, but like this, for example. Okay. So last night, I went to the pharmacy. Okay. Okay. I'm in line. And this girl in front of me clearly had on fake but pants. Yeah. Like you could see like, the outline of the whatever you would call it, the fake glutes or whatever. What if you're a butt guy or a butt girl, you know? And you're like, Oh, well, What? What? So then things happen. And you realize, all of a sudden..

Ben:

that budonkidonk aint got no budonk.

Sarah:

yeah, there's nothing. There's just flat ass.

Ben:

Kick her to the curb.

Sarah:

But then would you be like, Where does this end? Do you know what I mean? It's just, I'm just very curious the males perspective on this particular situation? Because I feel like, I feel like there's a lie. I feel like there's a lie. I feel like there definitely is a line especially with, you know, eyeshadow and colors. And with contouring the way it is these days. That's the thing. It's like, yeah, on Instagram. Yeah, it gets pretty wild. Totally different. I was just curious on your take on that as a male perspective.

Ben:

I just don't see it as that big of a deal. To be honest with you. I feel like I mean, coming from punk subculture people look weird. Regardless, wherever you go. I think that's a little different. So like, you connect more with personalities anyway, but at the same time, whereas, you know, they look one way, one day and the other way the other day, I don't think it would be different enough that I would be bothered by it.

Sarah:

And I think too, like so when you're in a situation where you know, somebody is of a gothic following or whatever, you know, that that person is not that pale problem, right? Like, you know, like, you know, hope that you know, right? So like, you know, these things, however, with what people can do with makeup nowadays and just, you don't necessarily know like, you know, I feel like there's a certain level of physical attraction you need to have somebody that you're in a relationship with and, you know, different features mean different things to different people.

Ben:

send us an email Ben@saladsdontmakefriends.com or at Sarah@saladsdontmakefriends.com; Let us know what you think we'd love to hear from you. What do you think the first person to wear makeup was? Do you think it was just a woman who just rubbed charcoal on her face and was like, "am I pretty now mama?" like she must have been fucking nuts.

Sarah:

Perhaps, but I believe...

Ben:

and then everyone's like, What the fuck is she doing?

Sarah:

And like it may be one of those things like the first people to wear heels were actually men. So but I think makeup... I think makeup existed with Native people. Right? So

Ben:

right because it's gone back to Egypt. It's gone back to Yeah, further than that I imagine, like Mesopotamia...

Sarah:

I would be curious when the switch happens though because like so with tribes and you know, things make up indicated your place in society or your marital status or you know, all of those things. So I'd be careful. I'd be curious where the switch was when it went from symbolism to vanity.

Ben:

I just like to think of like first person who brought flowers on their face. They're like, I'm so fucking sexy right now. You know what the, the one of the yellow flowers?

Sarah:

Oh, the dandelions.

Ben:

Yeah. And on your cheeks. Yellow. Yeah. Like they just rub that all over their faces. Like I'm gonna get so much pussy.

Sarah:

Yeah, that jaundice is really hot

Ben:

It is when you're primitive, I guess. Caveman? I don't know how far back that would go.

Sarah:

I don't know. We need to we need to research that.

Ben:

I've always thought about first throughout history, like the first person that drink milk. What the fuck would think... who was like yes, I'm going to suck from this other animals teat and I'm going to enjoy all of this. Plus, have you seen a cow in person? and you want to suck on that fucking utter? Like it's not a cartoon cow. It's a real cow. You get face to face with it. And you go, "I kind of want some of that gross white warm froth."

Sarah:

It's just disgusting.

Ben:

Not only that the first person to drink it, but the first person to sell the second person on it.

Sarah:

Right

Ben:

What conversation was that? Hey, dude, you need to try this. It's so funny.

Sarah:

I'm trying to get it and they're like, wait, wait, dude. What the fuck are you doing right now?

Ben:

Or how stupid the first and wear glasses looked? Could you imagine? Oh God, like you walk into town wearing glasses. And everyone's like, What the fuck is on your face? Is that glass? What are you doing?

Sarah:

Like the one? What's the one lens callled... monocle. That's it. Yeah, that's all started with the monocle. And then somebody must have been like, hey, shit, if this one over both my eyes at the same time, it didn't have to hold it there would be pretty handy. I bet that's where that evolution came from I don't please tell the story. I don't know the story.

Ben:

. Again, I'll have to research and look into that. Do you know the first doctor to introduce the concept of hand washing? Ignaz Semmelweis. He was the doctor in the mid 1800s. I should have written it down. I can't believe I didn't write it down. That is very died in 1865. So it would have been like 1840s, 1850s He was an OB doc. Well, back in those days, you were a doctor of everything. There wasn't specialists. There was just your doctor. You just did Doctor stuff and environmental probably at the same time, right?

Sarah:

Yes. And barbers.

Ben:

So Ignaz was a, what we would consider a chief resident at the Vienna Medical Center, or General Hospital, or whatever it was in Vienna. It was a hospital in Vienna. That's all that matters. And he was in a role that he was teaching residents. He discovered when his friend Jacob Collette Chica, accidentally poked himself with a scalpel. They're in a post mortem exam and died of symptoms that were similar to the mothers that were given birth, what they call "child bed fever", and he thought, Huh, that's weird. So I started looking into it and notice that the residents would be between, you know, autopsies and birthings. And notice that the rate of child bed fever was higher when they went from autopsy to birthing then vice versa. So he decided to make a solution. It's like a bleach solution or like an ammonia type solution. It's something way too strong today for your hands, but he didn't know better because it was smart. I mean, we got better stuff today, but he would make his residents dip their hands before they went to birth these babies and he brought the mortality rate of child bed fever down to under 1%.

Sarah:

Wow, sounds pretty astonishing.

Ben:

Doctors of the day do not agree. They thought he was a friggin idiot. They said that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard my life. My hands aren't unclean. I'm a fucking doctor. I am a doctor. Okay, now in his lifetime he was never vindicated. No one believed him everyone thought he was an idiot. Thought he was a loon. A maroon, if you will,

Sarah:

oh, a maroon...

Ben:

He ended up having a nervous breakdown.

Sarah:

Oh, Jesus,

Ben:

because he was essentially just he was the loony doctor that no one trusted with anything they would go out of their way to mock. It is theory that you wash your hands when you play with a dead body before you catch a baby. He ended up going to an asylum.

Sarah:

Oh my God...

Ben:

because of this nervous breakdown. In 14 days, he was beat to death by guards.

Sarah:

Oh, my God.

Ben:

He was beat for acting out. And then he died from gangrenous wounds from those beatings, and he is probably one of the most important doctors we've had in history. Well, I mean, he was shit all over. Do you want to take a guess on when we started taking this seriously?

Sarah:

Oh, God is gonna be throw up. He died

Ben:

in 1865. When? In 1865, lupus through our patents the process of fighting diseases and wine, later known as pasteurization, which led to germ theory.

Sarah:

Oh, right, because the line loop. It's the

Ben:

He's the one that took what he did and pushed it forward. one that took what he did pushed it forward. And people went Oh, And people went Oh, hmm. Because they could see it in the wine. hmm. Because they could see it in the wine. But they didn't But they didn't realize, but they they couldn't see it with realize, but they they couldn't see it with the surviving babies the surviving babies and mothers. and mothers. Oh, yeah.

Sarah:

Oh, yeah. I mean, because that makes perfect sense. I mean, because that makes perfect sense. And And I don't think they started washing their hands right away.

Ben:

I don't think they started washing their hands right away. I think that went on for a few more years. I remember. In I think that went on for a few more years. I remember. In nursing school, we hear a lot about Florence Nightingale. Her nursing school, we hear a lot about Florence Nightingale. Her claim to fame was telling doctors to wash their fucking claim to fame was telling doctors to wash their fucking hands. hands.

Sarah:

Oh my god. I mean, but honestly, I'm not surprised. Oh my god. I mean, but honestly, I'm not surprised. It's 2023 we It's 2023 we went through a fucking pandemic. People still. went through a fucking pandemic. People still. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben:

of like he was that doctor in the movie where everything's falling apart. The world's falling apart. He's warning everybody. Guys, this is gonna go to shit. And they're like, you're an idiot. Dumb scientists.

Sarah:

That's how this always goes. I feel like this pretty much repeats throughout history.

Ben:

So in terms of first, I want to pitch something to you and see what your reaction would be. Okay. Picture this.

Sarah:

Picturing.

Ben:

You are Man.

Sarah:

You lost me?

Ben:

Giant prostate.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

You can't pee so good, as your prostate is way too big. Sometimes when you pee, you pee a little bit. Sometimes you feel like you need to pee and can't pee. Normally, what you would do is you'd go in and they would put a catheter and drain it out. But, there's more.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

So what I want to do for you, you're coming in because he can't pee so good. And you don't want catheters up your wiener everyday for the rest of your life.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

I can't put you under full anesthesia. But I will sedate you enough. You probably won't feel it. I'm going to go up your pee hole with a rod. I'm going to shoot a laser at your prostate and burn it off.

Sarah:

I'm sorry, what? Is this a thing?

Ben:

Yes, it's the thing. I'm going to burn your prostate with laser to make more room so you can pee better. You might be incontinent. You might have some bleeding. You might have some dick issues after that. You might have retrograde ejaculation. That'd be coming back up into your bladder.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

Have I sold you on it yet?

Sarah:

No. Cuz I feel like I feel like the enlarged prostate...

Ben:

And what I'm explaining to you is the green light Terp transurethral resection of the prostate with a green light. Now let me show you what the Terps used to look like. This is without the laser that's just with

Sarah:

Yeah. Oh my god.

Ben:

Yeah. Now that's what it was before the laser. So the laser I mean, that's for people to see I'll put a picture up.

Sarah:

It's pretty wild.

Ben:

Anyway, I just want to know what that conversation was with a doctor and the patient the first time because you got to go in there 100% confident that you're going to fix this person trying to explain what you're about to do to him.

Sarah:

What year was this?

Ben:

The green light TURPs I think came out in like the 80s 80s or 90s They're more modern, the TURP itself the trans section, Initially it was done with a tool that is in the pic, that I just showed was the tool of how to do TURP. That was early 1900s, when they started to do those, and it was much more primitive. But it used the same procedure up until the green light. Now the green lights a lot more gentle. And it takes work. It's still effective, it does work, I mean that the research shows it does it is helpful. But that's got to be a rough conversation to have with the person that's going to be the guinea pig on whether this is going to work or not.

Sarah:

Right like how do you sell this process to somebody and say, No

Ben:

its good for you."Listen, this is very important. We are on the brink of scientific discovery. I need you. I need your dick wide open I need your deck wide open right now. Now normally I would do right now. Now normally I would do this with a knife. Not today. this with a knife. Not today. Not? No, we are shooting that No, we are shooting that prostate with a laser. It'll prostate with a laser. It'll just burn it a little bit. It's just burn it a little bit." It's fine. Did you know they used to fine. Did you know they used to do milk transfusions? Yeah. No do milk transfusions? good for

Sarah:

you. I'm sorry?

Ben:

The idea was milk is just as good as blood. It has all the nutrients you need. You just inject it right into a vein. It didn't work. A lot of people died.

Sarah:

Right. Right. Right.

Ben:

I don't think they did it for very long. But oh, the first TURP was done in 1926. So that's been going on for a hundred years.

Sarah:

So did they... so they had an understanding of what the prostate function, like, did?

Ben:

Oh, yeah. They knew it inside and out. It was the green light that was new.

Sarah:

Ah

Ben:

do you know the birth of anesthesia? Specifically epidurals

Sarah:

they're relatively new, right?

Ben:

Yes, yeah.

Sarah:

No, I know that they are newer.

Ben:

So the first person to discover that you could inject medicine into your spine effectively was this doctor named August Bier? Bi er, beer. Bier. Yeah. He was a German scientist. And he had a an assistant also named August. August Hildebrand. Bier was one of nine people to ever receive German national prize for art and science; that was created by Adolf Hitler. It's a replacement of the Nobel Prize. Well, let me tell you about August Bier. He decided this cocaine stuff works pretty good. You put it on, numbs it right up. Well, the spinal cord, that's all nerves. Should just numb everything up. I'm going to put this needle in that spine. I'm going to shoot some cocain e and we're gonna see what happens.

Sarah:

Well, I mean, good on him for for that. were there, I mean, I would imagine there were repercussions from

Ben:

yes, they didn't know about spinal headaches or anything yet. Him and his assistant went back and forth injecting themselves over and over and over with cocaine in their spines. That's that's how we that was the birth of understanding of epidurals. That's how we know is because someone took the initiative to shoot some cocaine in their spine.

Sarah:

I mean...

Ben:

And his name? August Bier.

Sarah:

fascinating. And it's interesting with the the award there that, you know, the whole Adolf Hitler relationship because he was coked out

Ben:

When you're a Nazi, you can't really have a Nobel Prize.

Sarah:

Right? But just you know, ironically,

Ben:

you got to make your own.

Sarah:

right in the arts, of course, because, you know,

Ben:

A prize for art and science.

Sarah:

They were so, so keen on art that they had to take it all from the entire world .

Ben:

Have you seen Nazi art? It's so boring. It's very square. It's very boring, very bland, very monotone. I wouldn't trust them for giving awards for art.

Sarah:

correct.

Ben:

Yeah.

Sarah:

right. Right. You got any other firsts for me?

Ben:

I don't. That was my list of firsts. So, like I was saying... is it consensual to fuck Rosie the robot from the Jetsons or not? If she doesn't have conscientiousness, can you consider that consent?

Sarah:

Wow, I wasn't prepared to go back into this conversation.

Ben:

because if you're programming her to take some fucking dick, that's not really consent, is it? You're consenting to yourself,

Sarah:

but you have to consent with the machine.

Ben:

That's just it.

Sarah:

People sell sex machines all the time. But if you put a face on, it doesn't make it less of a machine.

Ben:

I mean, where's the line between consent and non consent with a robot?

Sarah:

I don't think there is one. I feel like a robot. I mean, I think that there are some people now that would argue the point like the people that are trying to make, you know, artificial intelligence, more human like, trying to get people to believe that they, they have the ability to process thought and things the way human does, which I hope is not possible. Like that's one of those like weird fears of like,

Ben:

just an army pleasure bots.

Sarah:

Okay, we're back to the sex robots. But I was just thinking in general, I was thinking in general that, you know, it's a little scary. It's scary to me for the idea of a machine being able to mimic a human being right, because it doesn't necessarily have to be able to feel or think like a human but if it can mimic human behavior,

Ben:

If it can hurt like a human, I'm so hard. 8============D

Sarah:

Can we soundbite that?

Ben:

Absolutely.

Sarah:

I Don't know. So, this morning, you were listening to a podcast, where it immediately boiled my blood, I guess is the best way to put it. I'm still a little emotional about it. So I'm not very articulate about my thoughts at this point in time, because I was just so flabbergasted with the with how they were speaking about,

Ben:

well spill it, sister.

Sarah:

Alright. Yeah, I'm rambling. Thanks. No, so the topic specifically was about some people that are not good people. But it rolled around to the topic of, you know, using the language of psychopaths and sociopath and

Ben:

Ya know, your cousin was a psychopath.

Sarah:

I don't get it. Oh, damn. See, I'm way late to the show on those references. Yeah, anyway. They were all like being sensitive about, you know, the whole, you know, psychopath sociopath thing, and it was their empathizing. They were empathizing in a in a, in a way that was not appropriate. I don't feel like you know, I am somebody who's very sensitive to people in their mental health struggles, or whatever it is that they might be dealing with. But I think this was a different kind of conversation. And again, I don't want to be too specific about you know, I don't want to call anybody out. But these people express having very strong feelings about the use of psychopath and sociopath and things like that, and how they're human too. And all of these things.

Ben:

In media, I think the terms are overused.

Sarah:

Well, they're absolutely overused. Like, for example, sociopath, essentially, like,

Ben:

what's the difference between sociopath and a psychopath? I mean, in certain aspects, like, it's actually an

Sarah:

Well, so first of all, a sociopath, they don't really use that terminology anymore. It's a personality disorder. And it's advantage, like business. typically called antisocial personality disorder. Somebody I mean, I guess it like if they wanted to, with antisocial personality disorder lacks the ability to empathize with a person, okay, you know, it's very hard for them to get along. Not all people that have, you know, antisocial personality disorder are going out and doing destructive things. There are a lot of people that have this disorder, and they

Ben:

I mean, it's a lot easier to, you know, profit and exploit people when you don't give a shit.

Sarah:

But there's also there's also there's traits associated with it that, you know, make it a struggle, because the ability like you and I have to kind of manage impulses.

Ben:

Yeah

Sarah:

you know, that's, that's also a faculty that is an inhibited.

Ben:

I'm not good at managing impulses. Does that make me a sociopath?

Sarah:

No one thing makes you, or anybody. But the problem with what they were saying was that it was just like, they were talking in particular about somebody that did a horrible thing. And it was like, well, they're a human being. And, you know, that may be so and everybody would baseline should be everybody should treat everybody else, like a human being regardless of what they have going on.

Ben:

You could still be an asshole.

Sarah:

you can be an asshole, right?

Ben:

It's okay to acknowledge when someone is an asshole

Sarah:

that was kind of what they were circling around. that there's... In fact, I believe they actually said that there was no such thing as a bad person. And I think that's a line of shit.

Ben:

Yes, absolutely.

Sarah:

I have personally met people in my life, professional or otherwise, that are not Good people.

Ben:

Right. And it's hard with personality disorders too because part of you wants to explain their behaviors with a personality disorder, which it does to an extent, but it doesn't excuse their behavior. So

Sarah:

no, it doesn't excuse I don't believe that a personality disorder. There are so many different kinds of personality disorders that people struggle with every day and I don't believe that they define a person

Ben:

right

Sarah:

nor do they excuse a person from you know what I mean? So people know what is socially acceptable and what's not right you know what I mean? Like

Ben:

The with personality disorders to its its behaviors and traits you'll see in just about everybody. It's just exaggerated to a degree that it's not healthy,

Sarah:

right? And people manage these just fine, right? Like people that seek help. And you know, there's plenty of people in this world that struggle with this and you wouldn't know it. However, what's dangerous about a situation is if you have said asshole with said, you know, antisocial personality disorder, then that becomes a dangerous thing. In

Ben:

this specific example, without getting too much into it, there was repeated behaviors that were red flags for a behavior that was much more deadly in the end,

Sarah:

right. And there should have been like interventions, there should have been been something but the flippant way that they they just talked about this, it was very much like

Ben:

trying to humanize with a mass killer.

Sarah:

That's correct. And I was horrified with it. I just don't get this bunnies and rainbows bullshit about how everybody has some good in them that whatever. And it's like, yeah, I'd like to think that everybody has some good in them. But there are people in this world that are terrible people,

Ben:

right? I think it's more people have the capacity for good.

Sarah:

Absolutely.

Ben:

Whether they are motivated for it or not, is a different story.

Sarah:

But when you also can't feel pleasure for doing good, perhaps you get a rush from doing things that are not good. Right. And,

Ben:

and that that kind of... You see a lot with like true crime fans, they empathize so hardly with serial killers, they seem to forget the crimes that they did, right? They kind of divorced them from their crimes, and they look at them as human being. And while that's important, that is a factor into what led to it, we can't excuse their behavior because of an underlying disorder.

Sarah:

Right. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, that's not fair to anybody. It's especially not fair to the victims. And

Ben:

Yeah, try saying that to the victim's family.

Sarah:

Right, right. Yeah."They're a person too"

Ben:

so is my daughter, my son, right? Well, not anymore. Because of him.

Sarah:

right

Ben:

Because he was a person first.

Sarah:

right. So I just, I just think that there's this. Maybe I'm just jaded or whatever. But you know, 'everybody contribute something positive to the world' is bullshit. It's not that it's not true. Not that everybody's terrible. But I feel like like you said, everybody has a capacity for good. But don't try and fucking blow off... I don't know. I'm so emotional about it. I can't really like absolutely articulate my thoughts well about it. But I think the biggest takeaway for me on this was when I was listening to this, I was getting so frustrated, there was something else that was said, That was a very clear indication that this person who had these strong feelings really didn't understand personality disorders at all.

Ben:

Right.

Sarah:

They just had strong feelings about the word usage.

Ben:

Yes.

Sarah:

I'm sorry, But if you don't know about something, shut the fuck up about it. Like,

Ben:

that's fair.

Sarah:

You don't have to talk...

Ben:

especially with psychology, it's such a complicated subject. And it's something that you need a deep understanding before you can really talk about it. And to be so flippant with these terms.

Sarah:

And just to be like, I'm really passionate about, you know, have very strong feelings about the use of the this these terms. Why?

Ben:

Right? And if he did, why now? We're not talking about someone calling like their friend a psycho.

Sarah:

right? Like, yeah, it's absurd. I don't know. I guess this was my PSA. If you don't fucking know about something. Don't talk about it. Just a thought people.

Ben:

I mean, I can sort of see where they're coming from.

Sarah:

Are you trying to empathize?

Ben:

I'm trying to emphasize with them with the sociopaths.

Sarah:

I have, I have read case studies with people that have had this this diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. And there are people that they really try hard. They know this about themselves.

Ben:

Right.

Sarah:

They make an effort to mimic what they believe is proper social behavior of they they work, they contribute to society. They do what they think they should do. Yep. Awesome. Yeah. But, you know, let's not...

Music:

"Queen City Carwreck" by Blake Sidewalker

Ben:

Speaking of society, it's a man's world. Let's be honest. Women have it rough. It's only getting rougher. Have you ever been catcalled before?

Sarah:

Oh, Jesus. I have in fact, yeah. Yeah.

Ben:

How was that experience?

Sarah:

Gross? Yeah.

Ben:

Yeah, I think men don't understand the experience. Because they just understand - I am either complementing or being sexually forward at a girl that I find attractive, and they think of themselves as attractive. But I think if the roles were reversed, maybe men would understand.

Sarah:

well,

Ben:

which is why I want to start a street gang called"Construction Sluts"

Sarah:

For fuck's sake

Ben:

now, construction sluts. You dress up in construction outfits. You don't shave, wear makeup,

Sarah:

right because you need to suddenly appear

Ben:

to look as gross as possible.

Sarah:

Yeah, also reflective vests. Yeah. Okay,

Ben:

and you're gonna cat call men.

Sarah:

All right, let's see, so these are females.

Ben:

These are females. catcalling men.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

So men can truly understand what it's like to be catcalled.

Sarah:

Ah

Ben:

let me run through a few lines that I wrote down.

Sarah:

Oh goodness. Okay, for inspiration, okay.

Slut:

Hey Big Boy, how do you like your eggs? overeasy? just like this? because I like mine scrambled

Sarah:

I feel like it might be a little too wordy for said cat call but

Slut:

hey boy, let me stop you. Do you poop out of that butt, Daddy?

Sarah:

I don't

Ben:

Is that -

Sarah:

I don't like that, no.

Ben:

When men cat call its gross. So I just thought that of some gross stuff.

Sarah:

Well, like when men

Slut:

I want you to be my Dad.

Sarah:

I feel... nope...

Ben:

see, that discomfort. That's what I want people to feel. I want the men to be as uncomfortable as women are uncomfortable when they get catcalled

Sarah:

I'd like to throw this out to listeners please email us.

Ben:

Email your best construction slut pickup line cat call

Sarah:

Yes. And you know what? Why don't you just send those to ben@saladsdontmakefriends.com

Slut:

I'd like to tie you down and fart in your mouth, baby.

Ben:

What do you think?

Sarah:

oh my god. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Ben:

Oh, that was on this list too.

Sarah:

Of course it was.

Slut:

I'm on my period daddy. But I don't mind if you get all up in that.

Sarah:

Oh, god.

Ben:

That was kind of mild. Compared to the rest.

Sarah:

I mean, but it paints a picture that I don't necessarily want to visualize

Slut:

hey there, muscle man. Do you like mushroom pizza? Because this box looks cheesy, smells yeasty, but tastes fungal.

Sarah:

Oh my God, that's so disgusting. Oh my god. But what if... That'd be funny if the guy turned around and was like used to probably see a doctor about that.

Ben:

I don't think he would I don't think that would follow because as a woman who has been catcalled, I don't imagine that there's a lot of, you know, back and forth. It's just at you. And then you walk away because

Sarah:

Oh, no, no, no, no.

Ben:

Did you hook up with the guy? Were so flattered that you went back and you're like, you know what? I'm gonna give this guy my number.

Sarah:

No, I just, I have given.... I have provided feedback and then moved on. Yeah, you know, I think it happens. Like I don't think people understand how much it happens to women. And it doesn't matter. Like you don't need to be like a six foot tall, thin blonde to get cat called, like it happens to so many people. I don't think people realize I don't think men realize how frequently it happens. It's gross. No, you know, No self respecting. Woman. It's like, Oh, yeah.

Ben:

How do you feel about negging?

Sarah:

I'm sorry, negging? you'll have to define it.

Ben:

so negging is when you say something negative to kind of bring them down to your level.

Sarah:

Wait, so we're abbreviating Now? the word negative...

Ben:

Have you not read any Pickup Artists literature?

Sarah:

No.

Ben:

Why not? Okay, let me give you an example of my construction slut negging.

Slut:

You look like a little bitch. But you know what? You remind me of a rusty bicycle. You get me from point A to point B if there's no other option.

Sarah:

Oh my god.

Ben:

I can't tell if it's good or not. I'm not I don't cat call. I don't know what works. What doesn't work. I it's just not in me. Okay

Sarah:

I appreciate that. But I don't I'm trying to think back at the times that I've been cat called in it that may

Slut:

Let me see that frown, baby

Ben:

Instead of let me see that smile.

Sarah:

Oh

Ben:

I don't know why I put that maybe I thought men were sexier when they frown. I don't think that's hot.

Slut:

Get over here, prince. Let me see that gut. Mmm, all that junk up in that gut. Mmm, look at that hog. I'd glark glark that needle dick, baby!

Sarah:

Oh my god. I feel like that's that's fitting for a cat call. I feel like the word usage is down but its Very effective.

Slut:

slow down, fellas. How about you come back here we'll do a little Brokeback Mountain.

Ben:

See that's if there's two guys walking.

Sarah:

Oh, okay. Right because you got to include them both.

Slut:

Oh, Prince, let me see what them nuts do.

Sarah:

I mean, it's comparable to things

Ben:

So am I doing pretty good as a woman? Am I filling the roll pretty well?

Slut:

Ah, baby. I would squirt all over that beard.

Sarah:

Oh, I mean yeah, I mean in terms of like, gross out factor. You've nailed it.

Slut:

Get over here get me pregnant, you fucking loser.

Ben:

So that's another neg.

Sarah:

Oh like I remember Is there somebody that coined that term or is that just a noun or abbreviate it?

Ben:

It's just a term that's been around for must be 20, 25 years

Sarah:

that's a lie.

Ben:

no, it's gotta be.

Sarah:

we need to research this

Ben:

I've done a lot of research

Sarah:

I have no doubt that you have I'm just really I'm really upset about the fact that we abbreviate everything now.

Slut:

Hey prince - My kids need a Dad. You up for it?

Sarah:

Whats with the prince thing?

Ben:

because princess, Or, baby, there's only so many variations of baby you can do.

Sarah:

I know but baby works for a guy.

Ben:

Yeah.

Sarah:

I mean you could...

Ben:

The thing is is I like prince.

Sarah:

You know something, cat calls aren't necessarily very eloquent. I don't know that people are. Hey, Prince, I guess Hey, princess. Sure, there's a lot of people that...

Ben:

Like, how about a smile, Princess. See? I'm not gonna catcalling it's just not me.

Sarah:

I appreciate it. I feel like you're I feel like you've been pretty creative with what you've come up with.

Slut:

Look at that butt cleavage. Your butt is a forest baby and I love it.

Sarah:

Butt cleavage. Oh, I like it. I don't like it. I don't like

Ben:

You love that butt cleavage.

Sarah:

Yeah, no,

Ben:

I see you looking, hey, eyes are up here. I've seen look at my butt cleavage.

Sarah:

I plead the fifth.

Slut:

Baby, you got a face like Tom Brady and a body like Ted Cruz.

Sarah:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Gross.

Ben:

I don't know if I was high when I wrote this. But

Slut:

damn, you lookin fat! Let me see that flaccid dick.

Ben:

That's it. That's all I got. Anyway, let's hear your best construction slut pickup lines.

Sarah:

Yes.

Ben:

And at salads. Don't make friends.com

Sarah:

Yes, please, Ben, Ben's email address for those

Ben:

subject. I don't know subject whatever you want it to be.

Sarah:

What about your construction? Construction sluts..

Ben:

We're gonna take over this country. My construction sluts. I say in solidarity, not that I own you. Yeah, I'm not like a pimp of construction sluts.

Sarah:

Yeah, let's let's put that disclaimer out there. Nor do we feel all constuction workers are cat callers.

Ben:

I've been mistaken for a pimp of construction sluts before I just want to make it clear clear the record I am not. a fan.

Sarah:

How does a stereotypical pimp of construction workers dress like? what is what is? What is the equivalent? Like what would you be wearing...

Ben:

You'd be a pimp but you'd be like a foreman, so like purple hard hat.

Sarah:

Oh, yeah, right like the

Ben:

Aviators,but like , blinged out

Sarah:

Yeah, aviators.

Ben:

not really gold teeth probably like tin teeth. one gold ring and it's your your matrimony.

Sarah:

Right.

Ben:

Timberlands,

Sarah:

obviously yeah, I mean, some like I guess you would have like the best suspenders Right. Like

Ben:

suspenders. Definitely.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Ben:

Yeah. You'd be smoking marlb Reds, but out of those, like long cigarette holders that like the penguin uses

Sarah:

Do they still use those?

Ben:

When I was a kid, my best friend I used to go to his house and his mom used one

Sarah:

Was this so her fingers didn't get all...

Ben:

I think so. Yeah, cuz she she smoked like non-filtered. I think. I think that's why she did it.

Sarah:

I think that's, I think that's what those were intended for when they were made,

Ben:

but she looked classy as fuck. I mean, they were section eight, but just keep it classy.

Sarah:

Keep it classy.

Ben:

You don't need money to have class, people.

Sarah:

you don't. you can be very classy individual.

Ben:

I have class out this ass.

Sarah:

And with that statement, it all went away.

Music:

"Signal 21" by Benji Hotep

Sarah:

So, following up on on a little discussion that we were just having about your construction...

Ben:

Construction sluts.

Sarah:

Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I don't know why that's not burned in my brain forever.

Ben:

It's been stuck in my brain for a long time.

Sarah:

It sounded like you had been really putting a lot of thought into this organization. But you

Ben:

I just want to empower women the best way I can as A man,

Sarah:

right

Ben:

because there's nothing more, Yeah, nothing more empowering to women as men. Men are the best women. And that's not a transphobic thing. That's not a term thing. Just be clear. You can help them. Ironically. facetious,

Sarah:

very, yeah, we should we should note when we're being facetious, because, yeah, you might

Ben:

just assume

Sarah:

Yeah, just assume that we're being you know,

Ben:

I'll tell you when I'm being real. For the most part,

Sarah:

I probably won't. So just take your best guess. And don't@ me. Again, following up on that you're talking about like that negging thing and whatever. And I got a little irritated with the whole abbreviation. How we're abbreviating everything now.

Ben:

Idk.

Sarah:

Let's not do

Ben:

stands for "I don't know."

Sarah:

But yeah, I got it. That's an older one like that. That one, you know, a Rofl. Rofl? Got it. Do people...

Ben:

Rolling on the floor,laughing.

Sarah:

Yeah, got it. All right. I've never actually heard somebody say it.

Ben:

it kind of loses steam when you're looking right at me, and I'm not actually rolling on the floor.

Sarah:

Right. Right.

Ben:

So I can't really

Sarah:

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's just lying. But in general, like, I mean, I get those things right. Like shorthand like every culture every decade since humans have existed. There's been some kind of shorthand, right that's existed and kind of

Ben:

in language and out language. There's the way old people speak and then there's the young hip way to speak.

Sarah:

I wouldn't calssify it that way, But...

Ben:

I don't know if you can see me on the podcast, but I'm dabbing. I'm dabbing and now I'm doing the floss dance. From

Sarah:

He is doing no such thing. I would enjoy seeing fortnight. that. However. Can you actually floss? I've seen this.

Ben:

I floss my teeth.

Sarah:

Good. I like a good flosser.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah, gums bleed, but I floss anyway. floss right through the blood.

Sarah:

Good for you. Well, you got to just power through it. I think anybody who says that their gums don't bleed when they floss is a liar.

Ben:

Fucking liars.

Sarah:

There's dentists listening right now. Like "oh my god no". please don't write us about that.Alright, but anyway, back to the abbreviating thing.

Ben:

Yes.

Sarah:

So I watch the news, right? You know, a lot like the local news will give sports which I know nothing about sports. I don't care about sports. I'm sorry, world. It's just not my thing. But not too long ago, I started hearing them say the word "W". And I'm like really?

Ben:

W for win?

Sarah:

Yes. Yes. So now we have reached a point where we are using two syllables to abbreviate a one syllable word. Like, what the fuck? I don't understand this, this need for us to abbreviate things when it actually makes more work. Like

Ben:

I absolutely agree. It doesn't take any more work to say wins and losses. The whole W started, I think, in baseball with the limited area that you can... because they used to have the wood paneling for the scores and the innings and stuff. And

Sarah:

that makes sense, right?

Ben:

There's only so much room...

Sarah:

Yeah,

Ben:

that you can do it. And you want to make sure that the crowd can see it from where they're sitting. But you don't need to say it.

Sarah:

Right. Like just

Ben:

the benefit of talking is that you can say the whole word.

Sarah:

Yeah. And my favorite is when they're like, Oh, they've got such and such W's for the season. Like, let's just fucking say wins. They've won this many times

Ben:

You can say win. They deserve it. They won.

Sarah:

Yeah, as well

Ben:

just give them the extra two letters.

Sarah:

Right, but I just

Ben:

They're fucking winners.

Sarah:

I just don't understand like, and, you know, I feel like now when I receive the fortunately for me, I'm not a super social person. So it's not like I'm corresponding with a lot of people. But there are times, especially in the workplace, where, you know, I have to Google. I have now reached the age where I must Google certain things to understand what people are saying to me. Yeah. And I feel like that's wrong. And I don't I don't, I don't like it. I just don't think that there's certain like,

Ben:

I personally, I like to keep up with the youth. I hang around high schools around like, you know, three, four o'clock, and

Sarah:

that's not sketchy at all.

Ben:

No, I mean, I'm not. Don't be gross. I don't sleep with these kids, I'm just smoking weed with them. I'm selling them cigarettes.

Sarah:

Yeah. You know,

Ben:

and I'm keeping up on the lingo. You know?

Sarah:

Yeah. That's the Way to do it.

Ben:

Yeah. It is one way to do it.

Sarah:

Yeah. That's not happening, by the way. Not but you are

Ben:

I was just trying to impress my friends.

Sarah:

Oh, all of those friends. Yeah.

Ben:

I don't have any high school friends. I'm pathetic.

Sarah:

I would hope that you wouldn't. I mean, you're not old but

Ben:

I'm old enough to not have high school.

Sarah:

Right. I would be concerned. That would raise some red flags.

Ben:

Yeah. I agree with that.

Sarah:

I mean, but you are, like, in real life like you You are far more active on social media and things than I am so like they're things that you just naturally have learned. And it's not a big deal for you, but somebody like me who just avoids it like the plague, It's like, it's work. Like, I get it now like I understand generations before having frustration with like, the terminology like I have reached that point where I now like I now get it I now understand and can empathize with the "What the fuck are you saying to me right now?"

Ben:

you know, I hate to go back to the Simpsons, but there's a great grandpa Simpsons quote. "I used to be with it, but then they change what it was. Now what I'm with, isn't it anymore, And what "it" is seems weird and scary. And it will happen to you." And it did.

Sarah:

Oh, my God.

Ben:

In a big way.

Sarah:

Yeah, that's super profound.

Ben:

A lot of Simpsons is.

Sarah:

I know

Ben:

Simpsons is very spot on in earlier seasons. It really drifted off a cliff after

Sarah:

Yeah, it did. But there's still every now and again

Ben: Golden Years Simpsons:

Oh my god. Yeah. Right on the there's there's some pretty tasteful, you know, innuendo and things like that, that I appreciate but it's money.

Sarah:

Yep. Absolutely. With with so many things, but that quote, like it, absolutely speaks to it. And that quote was probably so many so many years ago, right?

Ben:

Yeah. Early 90s. Yeah.'92-'93.

Sarah:

But you know, it's it's like when you reach that point where you like, get it and you're like, Oh, shit. Oh, shit.

Ben:

I don't get it. And that was the whole point.

Sarah:

Right? Right

Music:

"Takeoff" by Benji Hotep

Ben:

so I was on the internet the other day...

Sarah:

as you do

Ben:

as I do. I went to reddit,

Sarah:

of course you did.

Ben:

I went to r/TIFU. Do you know what TIFU stands for?

Sarah:

We just... no, I have no fucking clue.

Ben:

Tifu stands for "today I fucked up".

Sarah:

Oh,

Ben:

and this is where people go on and they explain their side of the story and how they really fucked their lives up. Sometimes it's something mild. Other times it's very serious. But I came across one that I've wanted to share with you for the longest time. And today's the day today.

Sarah:

It's the day all right.

Ben:

Today I fucked up, by user I-love-roach

Sarah:

Wait, should you be reading....

Ben:

It's a screen name

Sarah:

Okay, so it's like a public...

Ben:

It's a public thing.

Sarah:

All right. All right. All right. Cool. Cool.

Ben:

And I'm gonna say that being Reddit, it is probably a throwaway account anyway. I don't think you can track it back to him. But we'll get into that when we get there.

Sarah:

All right. I don't know anything about Reddit. I only know about "am I the asshole posts"

Ben:

Sure.

Sarah:

And only limited

Ben:

so I'm going to read this post to you.

Sarah:

Okay, I'm listening.

Ben:

There's a series of three posts and we're gonna take breaks between them.

Sarah:

Now, I'm sorry, the three posts are from the same person?

Ben:

same person

Sarah:

on the same day?

Ben:

No.

Sarah:

Okay, so this person just repeatedly fucks up their life

Ben:

correct

Sarah:

and posts about it?

Ben:

Yes.

Sarah:

All right. Let's go.

Ben:

Today I fucked up by user I-Love-Roach. Ever since I was a teenager, I had these very intense fantasies. It started in ninth or 10th grade, when we read the Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka.Are you familiar with Metamorphosis?

Sarah:

I'm not

Ben:

even better

Sarah:

Oh Jesus.

Ben:

As I started to think more and more about the roach creature that the character had become, I started to imagine what it would be like if a woman turned into a roach instead. Now, in Metamorphosis, by Franz Kafka, the main character, turns into a cockroach slowly, like a literal cockroach. And

Sarah:

like a human size cockroach?

Ben:

yes.

Sarah:

Okay. All right.

Ben:

And people around him are reacting to him as if he were a cockroach.

Sarah:

Now when you say slowly, like this change...

Ben:

he wakes up as a cockroach.

Sarah:

Oh, okay.

Ben:

But he doesn't have the disposition of a cockroach yet. It kind of comes in time. We'll get deeper into that later. That part's not important.

Sarah:

Okay. All right. Sorry

Ben:

He's a cockroach. People hate him because he's a fucking cockroach.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

Family tries to love him. They just can't find it in themselves. It's... it's a good book. It is a good read. Well, I started to imagine what it would be like if a woman turned into a cockroach instead. I found this idea of very arousing. I would not be repulsed or frightened of her, as the characters in the story are. I will take care of her. Then my thoughts started to get sexual with the character. Eventually, I sort of dropped the bit about her or having been a human woman first, and I imagined the fictionalized roach species. They are giant roaches the size of a person and have complete intelligence. I, overtime, conjured up an imaginary friend of sorts. She was one of these roaches and her name was Ogtha. O-G-T-H-A, Ogtha.

Sarah:

Okay, does this person explain this?

Ben:

Nope.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

no, he just threw a name in there and just runs with it.

Sarah:

All right, okay.

Ben:

I would fantasize about her often. Whenever I masturbated, I'd be imagining elaborate scenarios of me and Ogtha making love. When I started to have actual sex I found I could not, uhhhh, dot dot dot, perform if I wasn't thinking of Ogtha. Your face right now is the reason why I bought this to you.

Sarah:

I know. I'm sorry.

Ben:

It's amazing. I love it.

Sarah:

I don't have any words right now.

Ben:

Oh, it gets better.

Sarah:

Oh?

Ben:

it gets so much better.

Sarah:

All right.

Ben:

So basically, now anytime I have sex with a woman, I'm pretending that she's actually Ogtha. Not just think about Ogtha. I concentrate intently to visualize that I'm actually doing this to Ogtha. I don't want to think about the girl at all. There's only Ogtha.

Sarah:

Uhhhhh

Ben:

of course, this sex can never be as exciting as my fully imaginary sessions with Ogtha. Clearly. there are things that her multiple appendages and antannae allow for, that the human woman could never match.

Sarah:

Please don't tell me he gets into detail about this, please. I don't know...

Ben:

So anyway, I've been in relationship with a girl about a year. Three or four times I've tried to have sex with her and not pretend she's Ogtha, but I just can't do it. Essentially, every time we have sex, I'm imagining that she is Ogtha

Sarah:

does does this does he say if this girl knows this?

Ben:

I finally confided this to her today.

Sarah:

Oh, no. Oh, no.

Ben:

This is the today I fucked up part.

Sarah:

Oh, God.

Ben:

And I was blown away by her reaction. I thought she might take it a bit badly, but that she would eventually get used to it. You know, as women do.

Sarah:

Uh, right. Yeah. I mean that's such a normal....

Ben:

Has this ever happened to you?

Sarah:

No? I mean, it's that's one of those paraphilias that I can't say I've heard a lot of people having you know,

Ben:

I have never seen such a look of disgust before. Imagine that.

Sarah:

Shocker.

Ben:

Outraged is not an understatement.

Sarah:

Uh huh.

Ben:

Wait. Outrage should be an understatement, I would think...

Sarah:

I would think so. I feel like that was a

Ben:

she's not even returning my texts now.

Sarah:

Good for her

Ben:

He's been with her for a year and she just went cold on him.

Sarah:

I mean, I'd like to know how much this guy said like, hey, every time we have sex, I...

Ben:

Here's the thing; if he started with, okay, this is my thing. I think about it often. Sure. I feel like that's something she may at least listen to. Not necessarily get with. But say okay, this is how you're wired. Never bring this up again. Please.

Sarah:

Right, right. Yeah.

Ben:

Instead, he says every time I fuck you, all I'm thinking about is cockroaches. Which....

Sarah:

so this fellow lacks tact?

Ben:

Well, that's why he's coming here for advice. I'm afraid she's actually going to break up with me...

Sarah:

like did this guy make this shit up? Like, I mean,

Ben:

and also she's going to tell people about Ogtha. I don't know how I will face anyone.

Sarah:

Wait, so he actually told her, like, the name like he went into

Ben:

all details it sounds like

Sarah:

Yeah, well, good for her for being...

Ben:

Now, this is gonna sound silly, But I also feel guilty about feeling shame. As if Ogtha would be saddened by this, even though I know she's imaginary, I just don't know what to do at this point. I just imagined he's exasperated at this point.

Sarah:

Yeah I appreciate like, you know, you adding some...

Ben:

Well, as you might imagine, most of the comments were What? Are you fucking serious?

Sarah:

Well,

Ben:

it's hard. Now, I'll give you my theory at the end of all this.

Sarah:

Oh, you have a theory? You've developed a theory

Ben:

I most certainly have.

Sarah:

Of course you have .

Ben: and.... Five years later:

The post reads five years ago, I submitted the story of me telling my then girlfriend that when we made love, I was envisioning her as a giant cockroach. Here's his post five years later. You might think of the scene in Blade Runner 2049 where the main character makes love to a prostitute. But his hologram girlfriend kind of holograms over the body of the actual person. So he can pretend he's making love to his hologram. That is what it's like with me and Ogtha, but instead of a hologram its just my imagination. Technology hasn't caught up with cockroaches. You can't just hologram a cockroach on a woman.

Sarah:

I mean, is this his whole update? Like it says, oh,

Ben:

no, no, no, no.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

That's just his preamble.

Sarah:

Oh, I need to know where this one.

Ben:

In the five years that have passed since this topic was posted, I decided to stop fooling myself and just committed to the love of Ogtha. I know she's not real, per se. But in my head, she is an actual personality. And I'm in love with that personality. I don't care if she's a roach, or if she's imaginary. The love I feel for her is real. Call me deluded. But you know, it's harmless, and it makes me happy. I have not had a real girlfriend again since that incident five years ago, but occasionally I have had one night stands via online apps and on these times I always envisioned the woman as my sensual cockroach queen. Now, I mean, no offense to women of course. Have you been offended up to this point?

Sarah:

No. No, I have I have found that this I'm happy that this man has found that he can be content with it.

Ben:

I want you to let your guard down because he's not trying to offend you here.

Sarah:

I - I'm not offended by it.

Ben:

No offense to the women of course. Oh, and even a gentleman once or twice; The many appendages of Ogtha makes translation to human gender almost irrelevant. Almost. Not quite. But almost.

Sarah:

I don't want to ask the question but I need to know.

Ben:

What do cockroaches look like when they bang?

Sarah:

No. Nope, don't wanna... I'm sure Google But show me that. I'm just wondering, like, in this man's fantasy world, what all of the appendages are doing that no person can compare to you know, actually I don't want to know.

Ben: Two words:

Butt stuff. Anyways, I just envision there Ogtha, and no, ha- he wrote ha ha - I've never confided to them about it. I learned my lesson. The thing about it though, is

Sarah:

How old is this person? I've become so in love with Ogtha that I married her in

Ben:

I recited my vows and she recited hers. I even went on a quotations married is in quotations. I even did a little ceremony in my living room. It was beautiful. honeymoon. Which technically, you could say was a solo vacation in New Orleans for a week. But in my mind, Ogtha was with me the entire time. Do you think went to New Orleans because it's full of cockroaches? Part of me wants to believe that that's why he went to New Orleans. In my mind, I think of her as my wife. Now. Here's where I fucked up. I got so used to thinking of her as my wife in my head, that a few months ago at work I nonchalantly said my wife. I think it was something like Oh yeah, me and my wife loved that show, in regards to Chopped. Do you know the show Chopped?

Sarah:

Yeah.

Ben:

Cooking Show.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Ben:

Apparently cockroaches like to watch it.

Sarah:

I had no idea.

Ben:

They don't just like it, they love it.

Sarah:

Oh, yeah.

Ben:

So now, everyone's asking me about my wife because they never heard I was married or even dating anyone. Everyone keeps pestering me, wanting to know more about her or wanting to see pictures. I became full of panic. I did the one thing I swore I would never do again. I talked to other people about Ogtha in my life. We were on a team lunch. I just let it all spill out. I told them how I became enamored as a teenager with the Franz Kafka story, how my fantasy evolved into an actual imaginary entity with a personality, and I slowly began to grow in love with her. What started as a mere sexual attraction to giant cockroaches,

Sarah:

No.

Ben:

Oh my god, this hurts Oh, Jesus Christ. What started as a mere Sexual attraction to giant cockroaches blossomed into a whirlwind of romance. She became the love of my life.

Sarah:

Awww

Ben:

even though her existence was in my own mind. At first, they thought I was doing a creepy joke.

Sarah:

Oh, yeah

Ben:

I could see that. I could see like, yeah, because that's so outlandish that you're like you seriously you're fucking with me

Sarah:

Yeah, youre fuckingwith me, yeah

Ben:

You're the quiet guy in the office like you're just fucking with me because you know you can.

Sarah:

Right

Ben:

I convinced them I was telling the truth. Well, they were afraid and disgusted. Everyone steers clear of me. We used to have a good social life. Now people only speak to me for work related reasons. Even working virtually now. Nobody sends me a slack message. I even heard a rumor that people went to HR. I've read this at least a dozen times and I still lose it every time.

Sarah:

Oh my God.

Ben:

Now to be clear. I'm not trying to make fun of him.

Sarah:

No, I mean

Ben:

and I'll get to my theory again.

Sarah:

Okay.

Ben:

There was, of course, nothing that could be done. I have lost good friends at work because of this.

Sarah:

I mean, that's sad.

Ben:

and it's jeopardized my career. My bosses think I'm insane. I've, ruined my friendships, future career

Sarah:

He's starting to look for a new job? prospects, due to my honesty. I've been thinking of starting to look for a new job.

Ben:

Yeah. You might want to post on LinkedIn. Although it's difficult,my current work environment. No matter what, I'll be staying with my wife Ogtha. For me, it's Ogtha forever. If you must know if you must know

Sarah:

Oh, if I must. Okay.

Ben:

I do hope that even if I am an old man, that one day, technology

Sarah:

you have to finish a sentence I need...

Ben:

I hope one day technology is invented to extract the Ogtha personality from my mind and implant it into a real external body. Either of genetically engineered or mechanical nature. And me and Ogtha can then experience a genuine physical connection. He's gonna fuck Rosie the robot.

Sarah:

It all circles back

Ben:

What's a cockroach personality?

Sarah:

Yeah,

Ben:

it just hates light? And eats garbage?

Sarah:

and it will survive a nuclear war.

Ben:

It just sits around sometimes and flies at you for no reason. Anyway, she must remain within me. That's fine. Oh, she's a realist. He understands.

Sarah:

Well,

Ben:

he's pragmatic about it.

Sarah:

What kills me about this, like, first of all, like, I feel sad for this person and not like, not sad, like pity but like, Well, I mean, I guess a little pity

Ben:

On one hand, he's so devoid and divorced from reality that like, he'll never have a normal life.

Sarah:

Well, he could have a very normal life. He just won't have

Ben:

at the same time. He seems happy with it.

Sarah:

And that's the thing. It's like, if he's not hurting anybody, and he's happy with it. All right, cool. But maybe understand that nobody's gonna, I mean, he understands.

Ben:

Maybe don't bring it up at work?

Sarah:

Well, he, I mean, he already like he clearly understands that this is not gonna go over well, with anybody. So like

Ben:

as it hasn't in the past.

Sarah:

Right? I mean, just as we've

Ben:

as we've seen time and time again, anytime he brings it up, it ruins everything for him.

Sarah:

Right? Like, I mean, I just you know, there are plenty of people that choose to be alone and live alone or whatever, and, you know, whatever they've got going on in their head. Perhaps they also you know, there's other people that maybe have this imaginary...

Ben:

if you are into fucking cockroaches, email Sarah at sarah@saladsdontmakefriends.com

Sarah:

Don't... Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah, you know what, I do need to hear from you. I need to know I need to understand. Because it is it is actually a paraphilia

Ben:

Yep. I've heard insect paraphilias before.

Sarah:

I have not. I've not actually heard of a real life person.

Ben:

Not like this, though. It's more like crawling on genitals.

Sarah:

Right. And that's Yeah, yeah. And it's a thing.

Ben:

I haven't heard a full grown cockroach.

Sarah:

No. And like this would be like one of these people that I would think would be part of that. What is the fuzzies there? Furries. Furries, furries. Do people dress up like bugs?

Ben:

No,no...

Sarah:

Okay, so that's more of like,

Ben:

an even if they did, it'd be more like, cartoonish. He's talking like straight real, like,

Sarah:

I know like, like the crunchy,

Ben:

right

Sarah:

shell. I just... there are some things like

Ben:

I got the heebie jeebies.

Sarah:

I know. All right. I mean, I just I feel bad for the guy, but like, keep it to yourself maybe. like it's not ever going to be socially acceptable to fuck animals or bugs as it shouldn't. Right? like they are live things that

Ben:

they cant truly consent.

Sarah:

Right. Um, and shouldn't mean like, let's let's keep it within the species, you know?

Ben:

And if you want to argue that email me at Ben@idontgiveashit.com I will not answer that email.

Sarah:

Right. Yeah, I mean, because I mean, bugs are live beings too. But you know, I, what was it, I watched a very interesting show on people with very, I say abnormal, but I mean, that can be taken poorly. But there was this one girl that, that became very enamored with a particular doll and ended up marrying this doll. And it was very, but I mean, she clearly had some other things going on. And I, you know,

Ben:

of the few times I've seen like inanimate objects paraphilias like that, like, there was one of those episodes, My Strange Addiction, or one of those where a woman is in love with a Ferris wheel. And a lot of it stems from like trauma, like childhood trauma.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Ben:

Which is sad. I don't think this stems from trauma though. This is just a miswiring, completely.

Sarah:

well, I mean, but then then this goes into this whole other subjects that I mean, it's a whole completely different can just to clarify Metamorphosis - I've tried to jerk off to it. of worms is that how paraphilias tend to arise is like the, you know, things get rewired or people become like, especially, you know, with this person, it was a book that led to a fantasy, but like, you know, pornography can rewire you know, the, what brings you pleasure and whatnot. And if anybody would like to argue that with me and please email me because you just can't. There's no bug fucking in it. It's not pornography at all. Oh, but you made the effort.

Ben:

Oh, yeah.

Sarah:

Oh, good. That's information I didn't need to know.

Ben:

I mean, do not sit with a book and masturbate as you read it fully? 200+ pages?

Sarah:

No that is not an experience I've had Oh, okay.

Ben:

it's a good book. I like The Trial better by Franz Kafka. A few years later. A few of you may recall some years ago, I That was a pretty good story. Anyways, I want to go forward, because there's a third update. posted about my lovely Ogtha. You can find my post history. Yeah, do your own work, you peasant. My new story requires an explanation of Ogtha. For those who don't know, I'll try to be brief. And then he kind of rehashes the whole beginning the spawning of it. I love Ogtha. And she loves me. Some time ago, I married her. Now from a strictly legal sense. No, I'm not married. I'm glad he clarified that.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Ben:

He made that distinction that it's not on paper.

Sarah:

Good. Yeah,

Ben:

So we consider our relationship to be marriage. I'm devoted to her and she's devoted to me. I revealed this to my co workers and it did not go well. I thought my parents had the right to know. Last evening, I revealed to them everything about Ogtha and told them that we were married. I even allowed Ogtha to speak through me to them, So that she could finally meet my parents after only seeing them from afar. I knew my parents would find it unusual at first, as parents would. But I thought they would come to understand and at least be happy for me. He's happy

Sarah:

Mhmm...

Ben:

you should be a supportive parent. I fear they think I'm deranged. I guarantee they think ou're deranged. I don't think that's a fear. Yes. That's the reality.

Sarah:

that's the reality of it. Well, I mean, I think it's now at a completely different level. Right? Like you take it like it's been taken to

Ben:

way too far.

Sarah:

Like this is like maybe perhaps mental health professional may be too involved but you know,

Ben:

my mother actually cried and not tears of happiness like i expected.

Sarah:

I'm sorry, he expected? Whoa whoa whoa - did you just ad lib? Did he really say that?

Ben:

He said that. Sir, you need to temper your expectations.This is the episode, let's get our expectations down to earth. They even encouraged me to seek counseling. Probably a good idea.

Sarah:

that sounds like really good parents.

Ben:

I explained to them what I'm experiencing is real, and encouraged them to read through the tulpa Reddit. Now, the tulpa Reddit, I had to look into it because I had no clue what the hell he was talking about. And it's like this... It's sort of paraphilia sort of, like a relationship with like, imaginary friends. But it's poised like, like a middle schoolers understanding of it. Like, for me, my impression of it is like, my cool imaginary friend talk when the people are in like, fifth or sixth grade. And I guess it does have, you know, an audience that's takes things very seriously. And I'm sure I'll hear all about it. Oh, look, there's some feet pictures. I'm scrolling through the subreddit right now. And there's another... Um okay. Yeah, I'm done. Anyway, what you need to know is the Tulpa Reddit is the community that he found that understood his love for Ogtha. I explained to them what I was experiencing is real encourage them to read through the tulpa read it. It's created a very bad situation for me. And now I fear my relationship with my parents is quite ruined. They keep insisting I seek counseling, and are threatening if I don't, they will no longer assist me with my student loans. And I'm no longer welcome at Thanksgiving. I feel they're overreacting. What does he think the appropriate reaction here is?

Sarah:

I feel like there's some more things going on with this gentleman then then perhaps he's letting on.

Ben:

At the same time, I wish I just kept my marriage secret. I do consider it to be a fuckup to have been truthful with my parents. They are in some way traditionalists you know, as traditional parents can be a man and a woman or a man and the man or woman and woman

Sarah:

are human, you know human to human

Ben:

human just no human to imaginary friends.

Sarah:

Yikes

Ben:

They are simply not ready to understand how entities can exist without a physical form. It breaks my heart, but I wish I had been deceitful to my family. Dude, me too. I wish he did too. So for the record, I won't ever divorce Ogtha. And our love I know can survive anything. I wish I had never been truthful to my parents.

Sarah:

Here's the thing,

Ben:

and that's where it ends. Thoughts?

Sarah:

well, I mean, I have so many. I just like first of all,

Ben:

do you think this is a troll? Or do you think this is the greatest love story ever known?

Sarah:

Well, so on that stuff and excuse my ignorance on this. But like I said, you know, social media is not really my thing. But like, are you actually seeing the date stamp that this person has returned? And like, post? Like, so it's

Ben:

It's legit, years apart. legit,

Sarah:

Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's, that's quite the commitment if it was a troll, right? Like, that's, that's pretty committed. But I mean, I know, like this kind of thing exists. And it's unfortunate. You know, I've, I've known of situations like this, that have existed with people that have like, comorbid, you know, mental health conditions, but sure. Also, you know, it's, it's a little sad in the, in the space that he feels like, this person he made up is the love of his life. And, you know, perhaps he feels like, that's the only way he'll be loved the way he wants to be loved. The cockroach thing, you know,

Ben:

like I said before, like, a lot of times this stems from like a trauma, right, it's there to fill a void of something that they feel they can't get otherwise.

Sarah:

Right. Right. And that's, I mean, that's like the theory behind the dissociative personality, you know, thing and I wonder if this is kind of an abstract from that and he's just, you know, painted into a fucking cockroach.

Ben:

I read through a lot of these comments because they were fantastic. I would encourage you to go on the subreddit and look up Ogtha. Just search it. You'll find the subreddit its worth just going through the comments, but one good point that they brought up was maybe he has a disgust/humiliation fetish. Where, because it's so disgusting is it's more about the humiliation part of it, which is why he keeps telling new people about it, knowing what the reaction is going to be.

Sarah:

perhaps, but I feel like I feel like

Ben:

I mean, with his parents, it kind of throws that under the bus. Unless he has like an incest thing going. I mean, it's just so bizarre.

Sarah:

I feel like he would have told more people about it, though. Like he was telling people that

Ben:

he was kind of guarded.

Sarah:

Yeah,

Ben:

like, I could kind of see where they were coming from. And it made a lot of sense, but at the same time, it just didn't, the pieces didn't fit. Now, is it a problem, though?

Sarah:

I see. Here's, here's my thoughts.

Ben:

Thats the tough spot

Sarah:

is I think, you know, I think people should, if it's not hurting anybody, or affecting anybody, if he's not doing, you know, making fraudulent claims on his taxes that he's married, or, like, just, you know, things like if it's if it's just what he how he wants to live, and in his mind, like, that's fine. He's still being a productive member of society. He's not hurting anybody, you know, whatever. But my seems to be evolving,

Ben:

it's evolving, and it's hurting him every step of the way.

Sarah:

it is, and that

Ben:

every time he brings it up, there's something that it cuts him off from.

Sarah:

right.

Ben:

And he is worse off because of it.

Sarah:

But people have a right to make poor decisions for And thats the thing because it, because where do you themselves.

Ben:

That's true that everyone has the freedom to be an idiot. draw the line like, but like, he clearly knows where this is gonna go. And he just dives headfirst. Right? It's a swan dives right into it.

Sarah:

Right? I mean, you know, I don't know anything about this, this man. I mean, clearly, he had a stable job, and, you know, student loans. So he went to school, like, there's things that he's,

Ben:

but he's kind of pushed himself out of those with it.

Sarah:

right, and that's where it's becoming destructive to himself. And that's where I feel like

Ben:

another theory was that he was doing this to purposefully explode his relationships. Like he didn't know how to break up with his girlfriend; did this knowing she'd be disgusted. He had a job, hated his job, did it because this is what I'm into. I don't give a shit what they think. And if it means I need to find new job, whatever.

Sarah:

Yeah, but why would he be turning around posting about it? And oh, my God, my life? And why would he do it so far apart? And he's made the choice to avoid interpersonal relationships. I feel like there would be other methods that would be less humiliating for him and more accessible, I guess. Like this is for hurty. And I'm pretty involved or evolved fantasy. Yeah.

Ben:

Do you want to hear my theory?

Sarah:

sure.

Ben:

I think it's made up.

Sarah:

Do you think it's a fake reddit?

Ben:

it's fake. I think it's fake. And I'll tell you why. The book Metamorphosis deals with estrangement and rejection from society, as the character is a cockroach and is ostracized and eventually dies at the end. Spoiler, but like this book has been out for 100 something years. I don't, I don't do spoilers, whatever. It's like, if I know the end of a movie, I still watch it anyway. I don't know how you feel about spoilers.

Sarah:

I have to know the end of the movie before I'll watch it.

Ben:

I'm not gonna be a dick and just like say spoilers. But if it's a classic book, and you haven't read it, I mean, if you know he dies you're still gonna read the book,

Sarah:

it was published in 1915.

Ben:

The meat of the book is still good, whether you know, he's lives or dies. Anyway. This book comes up a lot in like high school, AP classes, or English classes, freshman college classes. And so there's a lot of papers on it. There's three distinct phases. In the book. There's the beginning where he's in denial. He tries to rejoin his family. He tries to his sister comes over and helps him and he's trying to make his life work as a human. But now he's a cockroach. Like he's really trying to force the pegs. The next step is he sort of accepts that he's a cockroach, and he starts falling into cockroach behaviors. Like he hates light. And he starts eating like, just like refuse and just lives quietly, and he likes to be motionless. And, oh, how a cockroach would think basically, and he's like, this is what I am. I like doing this. This is who I am.

Sarah:

Can he still talk as a cockroach?

Ben:

And he eventually... he declines and degrades, which is Yes

Sarah:

okay. the third part because everyone pushes him out. Even his sister can't take him anymore. And he just shrivels up and dies. Because he can't take care of himself. The thing is, in this post, it's broken up in three distinct parts. The three parts I feel are more. Not so much following. I mean, it kind of follows the idea of the denial, acceptance decline in the sense that the first post, he didn't understand why it was a problem. He's like, listen, I understand this isn't real. I don't know why she freaked out the way she did. The next post, he is admitting to his work that he's married to Ogtha. So he's accepted this is my life.

Ben:

This is what I do. And then third part, that decline is when

Sarah:

right he's like, You know what, let's just self implode, I would tell my parents are going to cut me off my student loans, and completely shut my life out. So it does kind of follow that arc. In one way more, so I see it with the ego and super ego. The first post strictly about sex. right

Ben:

He is fantasizing about cockroaches. He is imagining, his girlfriend is a cockroach when he has sex. He talks just primal feelings, he talks, the gratification he gets from it, the repulsion from the girlfriend feels embarrassed, it's more like a plea for help. He is following his id to the logical extreme and it blew up on him. The second part is the ego, his rationalizing this relationship. He understands his feelings, and he is making it real for himself. He's trying to actualize what this is. And he feels like in doing that, bringing his co workers into it kind of solidifies it as real. Unfortunately, they. They didn't, I don't know cooperate. But even from their point of view, they're trying to rationalize it. They think it's a dark joke, they aren't taking him seriously. And then when they do, they do the logical thing to go to HR. To see if HR can do something about it. It's just a much different tone than the first one. And then the third one is the super ego part. It's incorporating value judgment, and more. So the value judgment by his parents to him. So he's coming to his parents who would be the symbol of a super ego, with his impulses, and his ego tells the parents what's going on. And they're supposed to be the moral voice of reason. They're saying, What are you doing? You need to see a therapist. I beg of you. And like, everyone's stupid id, he refuses. Because why would you listen to rational decision making? He knows he made the right decisions. His parents are wrong. And it's just too perfect. And it's too. It really is a long con, these posts are years apart. Someone put a lot of work into this. I just don't I think it is poetic. And I think it is someone's English assignment. And I thought, I think they thought it was funny. I don't think it's real.

Sarah:

I feel that is a really long commitment. Right? Because like first post, and then five years later, and then again, three years later. I don't know. I mean, I almost feel like you have to be kind of sick to

Ben:

and then what's the payoff at the end? It's like, well, you tricked people,

Sarah:

Well, I mean, some people get off on that, right? So, you know, people

Ben:

could have been like an afterthought, or someone did like an initial post thinking it was funny. And then they're like, five years later, they're like, oh, man, it's just do an update. See what happens just to see who bites because these of course, these get like a million upvotes. Like, if they're farming for karma, they're doing it right, because

Sarah:

I don't understand karma on Reddit.

Ben:

You can upload a post if you like it or download it if you don't like it,

Sarah:

okay?

Ben:

And it's like a point system. The points don't mean anything.

Sarah:

Like who gets the points?

Ben:

the the person who posts

Sarah:

okay

Ben:

like you can get points on your posts, get points on your comments. But it's just a point system, you don't trade those points in for anything. It's just high score at the end of the day. Some people take that very seriously. And so they, what they do what we call farming for karma, where they do these stories, knowing that it's going to get a reaction and just expecting to get that reaction to kind of bolster their points up.

Sarah:

But when when they have to use like their real user to get those karma points.

Ben:

Yeah, you'd have to. I mean, you really have to commit your account to The World thinking you fuck cockroaches.

Sarah:

I feel like that's a lot of commitment. I know, I feel like that's a whole other issue is is the best. Best way to put that. I mean, I just feel like that's a really long running commitment. But then again, I mean people do strange things, people I mean,

Ben:

now, let's say you're in bed with someone and someone tells you this, what's your initial reaction?

Sarah:

Okay, so am I in bed pre sex or post sex with the

Ben:

Post. No, they had sex with you, thinking you were Ogtha. And then they're like, you know, I just got to tell her. I just got to come clean. Today is the day.

Sarah:

I feel like my response might be inappropriate first. I like it just might be like, I would think it was a joke.

Ben:

Yeah. Which is rational. You're not in the wrong here.

Sarah:

Right. But upon realizing like that, that was actually for real, like, serious, like, the person was serious. I'd be like, Oh, all right. Well, you know, you know, because I don't want to hurt people's feelings. Right? And I would feel bad for the person. Right? So I would just be like, you know, maybe this isn't gonna work. And I would quickly quickly leave

Ben:

ghost him. Just no texts, nothing.

Sarah:

No, that's horrible.

Ben:

I would go either one of two ways. I would ghost because there's, you're not gonna rationalize with this person. Clearly, you're not rationalizing. And not to mention, like, where is the end game?

Sarah:

Right.

Ben:

Well, here's a problem.

Sarah:

And that's the thing. And but I think, I think when people think ghosting is a problem in and of itself, absolutely is, but I think that can be rather traumatizing to people. And this person clearly doesn't need trauma added. Yeah, things like so. I mean, I would be, I would really just be upfront, and if they texted like, I wouldn't initiate any kind of correspondence. But if they reached out, I would be like, you know, this isn't gonna work. You know, good luck.

Ben:

Not to be a meathead, But if a girl said it to me, I might stick around a little bit just to see where it's gonna go. Just to see, I mean,

Sarah:

you have a penis, I wouldn't expect anything less. No offense, man, Please don't @ me about that.

Ben:

She's a cockroach. She wants to pretend I'm a cockroach. What the fuck ever?

Sarah:

Right. But I feel like, I feel like men. But it's a different role, though. It's different. It's different.

Ben:

Because I wouldn't take that as I look like a cockroach, which I feel like his high school girlfriend probably did was, yeah, you remind me of a cockroach and it gets me off in a big way. Like, that's a rough conversation to have.

Sarah:

Could you imagine

Ben:

in like a girl that's probably focused on her body image

Sarah:

yeah, no,

Ben:

it's a real traumatizing...

Sarah:

that's that's really where all parties. Yeah. I don't know. Because, like, it's hard. Because like, again, like, I don't like to be mean or whatever. But, you know, clearly the person has some, some things but you know, I, again, I circled back people have this programming in their brain that happens from all different things. And it's like, you don't want to judge somebody based on it. But I also don't want to be visualized as some kind of cockroach. You know, also, you don't want to have to, quote unquote, compete with an imaginary friend.

Ben:

That's true too.

Sarah:

Right. Like, it's like, I can't compete with the person you've created in your head like

Ben:

Not to mention, like, at what point does the cockroach start and stop? Like, what part of me Do you love?

Sarah:

Well and that's the thing like I think that creates a whole mess of

Ben:

like he said, in Blade Runner 2049 where he's imagining just like a hologram on top. Yeah. And he's literally fucking anybody.

Sarah:

Yeah, he and he is fine with the person he's created in his head. There is no competing with that. You know? I don't think anybody should try.

Ben:

Now, my biggest problem in this whole thing. Her name is Ogtha. Really, you couldn't find a sexier name? Maybe that plays into the whole factor of It's a mouthful to say. Ogtha doesn't roll off the tongue

Sarah:

It does not, like, that's not a name I picture flowing well during a sexual experience of which he has really none and I mean, like, I mean, their self.

Ben:

Just I mean, when this cockroach does its thing. Is it like hissing and clicking? Like

Sarah:

oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god.

Ben:

I don't know what how far it is.

Sarah:

Like this. I didn't go there with that until you just said that. Now I have this whole thing happening in my head right now. Dream about and we're scattered out Well,

Ben:

you're welcome.

Sarah:

No, yeah

Ben:

this has been our first episode of Salads Don't Make Friends. Thanks for coming along with us.

Sarah:

Yeah, I really hope you can forget all about that. This has been magical. Yes. Thank you. Thank you all. We hope we didn't traumatize you

People on this episode

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Ben

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Sarah

Host